Search Members Help

» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

Page 2 of 5<<12345>>

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic
Topic: Fly casting, Fundementals< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 11
Guest
Unregistered







PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2009,17:02  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You mean like - wump the rod, microsecond wrist, powersnap, hl/hs? Look for Mel, Joan Wulff, the Borgers, Mac Brown, and Kyte and Moran for the 80's and 90's. Swisher, Carl Richards, Jim Green for the 70's. Charles Ritz before that. Hans Gebetsroither (elliptical cast) and Marvin Hedge (double haul) for the 30's.

 Post Number: 12
Rudi Ferris Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2655
Joined: Jul. 2003
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2009,18:46 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Mike,

I am not a flycasting literature historian.  But given the pretty accurate rundown Charlie provided, an interesting evolutionary thread can be seen here.

Beginning with Marvin Hedge of the 30’s (though it would "begin" far earlier than he) then to Jimmy Green and through the Golden Gate pools in San Francisco, the path leads to European influences as well as Eastern U.S. influences of which Joan Wulff is an example.  Like much evolution and thought, the flycasting technical heritage spreads far and wide.  But in my knowledge, a primary stage of this evolution was truncated.

Prior to his untimely death in the early 70’s, the great caster, Jon Tarantino, was actively engaged with a very good writer and artist to write and illustrate a technical flycasting book, again, gathering the influences which at that time, the Golden Gate Club was a leading authority.

-----------------------------

This work would have vastly shortened the learning evolution of which this site is an excellent example.  Many or most of the primary technical subjects spoken of here were discussed and their answers fairly well known, though the kind of engineering and scientific data that we now see was unheard of.  

While this can’t and shouldn’t satisfy our Sexyloops Casting Technicians, it does show that there really isn’t much new under the casting sun.  Beyond technical equipment advances, most of these conversations are really pretty old.

-----------------------------

There may be large advances in teaching flycasting, however.  Though to me, the racket of ever more voices seems at times to confuse rather than clarify the primary issues…. Thus the need for “essentials.”

Cheers,    Rudi
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
victor Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3181
Joined: Apr. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2009,21:25 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Walter, did any of those come up with a set of rules, like Bills or Leftys, or did they just use word visualisatons like Mels whuump or Joans powersnap?

Rudi, I agree, it could be very enlightening to see how the fly casting model has evolved over the years.

 Mike


--------------
it's casting Jim, but not as we know it, according to EFFA

http://michaelheritage.wordpress.com/
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
Paul Arden Search for posts by this member.
Fly God 2010
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 25671
Joined: Jul. 2003
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2009,23:31 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think Bill's 5 Essentials model completely revolutionised flycasting understanding/instruction. While there have always been influential casters and teachers his model has given us much more because it's given us the tools to analyse what everyone else is teaching. For me at least, I see that as the biggest step forward we've made. Prior to that we were using the clock face and fixed casting arcs - at least that's how it was in the UK when I started teaching.

Cheers, Paul


--------------
It's an exploration; bring flyrods.

Flycasting Definitions
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 15
Aitor Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2074
Joined: Jan. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2009,23:32 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Mike,

Lefty changes the order and wording of his 4 principles on each of his books. This is the version written on his last work (Casting with Lefty Kreh):

1.- You must get the end of the fly line moving before you can make a back or forward cast.

2.- Once the line is moving the only way to load the rod is to move the casting hand at an ever-increasing speed and then bring it to a quick stop.

3.- The line will go in the direction the rod tip speeds up and stops -more specifically, it goes in the direction that the rod straightens when the rod hand stops.

4.- The longer the distance the rod travels on the back and forward casting strokes, the less effort is required to make the cast.


In my opinion that 4th principle is his most important contribution.


--------------
Aitor is not like us, he is Spanish, and therefore completely mad.
Cheers
, Paul

No discutas nunca con un idiota, la gente podría no notar la diferencia.
Immanuel Kant

Videos for casting geeks
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 16
grhen Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1051
Joined: Nov. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2009,02:54 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
While there have always been influential casters and teachers his model has given us much more because it's given us the tools to analyse what everyone else is teaching. For me at least, I see that as the biggest step forward we've made.


There is an ACA tournament caster named Chris Korich who trained and hung with the Rajeff brothers way back when.

Bill Gammel spent at least 20 minutes one day telling me how big an influence Chirs Korich was on both he and his fathers casting and thinking. From what I remember of the conversation Bill was asked what he wanted as a high school graduation present. I don't know where he had heard about Chris but he told his dad he wanted a casting lesson from Chris Korich. They traveled to San Francisco and met Chris at the Golden Gate Angling and Casting Club. The lesson was to be a 2 hour lesson beginning in the AM. After the 2 hours they kept on going and ended up casting until dark. They then went to dinner with him.

Bill mentioned that he and his dad learned so much that day that their casting and casting theories were completely changed. When developing the the 5 essentials they drew upon much of what they learned iat the Golden Gate club that day. Chris Korich, the Rajeffs, and Mel Krieger were heavily influenced by, and coached by, the teachings of Jon Tarantino. So there is a direct link here.

What many of you don't know is the role that the casting club played in the history of the sport of fly fishing in the US. Until the 1970' and 1980's most technology in reels, rods and lines was researched in the casting clubs. Prior to the AFTMA line standard was the NAACC standard (National Association of Angling and Casting Clubs) before that it was the NASAC (National Association of Scientific Angling Clubs) that set standards. The AFTMA was founded in the 19060's by many heads of some of the line companiesin conjunction with others  who were also active in tournament casting. An example of this would be Art Agnew Sr. who headed up the Sunset Line Company. Many of you probably recognize the company as the maker of Amnesia. They also produced fly lines for years and made their big money supplying parachute cord to the military.


--------------
tp://CastFlys.Com]CastFlys.Com[/URL]
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 17
mac brown Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members_
Posts: 444
Joined: Apr. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2009,03:06 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting thread Victor. I think the reason you see little on it early on is because they were guarded like military secrets -hence the clockfaces, etc.. emerged. The really old books tell very little in regards to casting.

The ones that shared concepts began with likes of Joe Brooks (72) -"Trout Fishing" (many great concepts illustrated in this work. Swisher and Richards (75) "Fly Fishing Strategies".  The thing is there were some real gems that began around the early 70's. They all have concepts to put to use, not rules. Tuna gave a good run down already on that one.

I do not see how rules will ever hold up in the long run. The fly cast is too dynamic for any to stick. Not to step on any toes but any rule can be broken. My thoughts have always remained that if something does not hold true than why use it?

Concepts (fundamentals) can exist to describe anything and everything about casting which can do nothing more than to push the envelope for generations to come. Like Paul stated the 5 essentials gives us a base plate to start. It is not called Bill's 5 rules--that would be way to egotistical.

One that was not mentioned above,  but well worth the read for a new take on some concepts would be Al Buhr's 5 fundamentals. They were cleverly written fundamentals to withstand the test of time. They are written in his latest book "Spey Casting Techniques".

Here they are:
1. An effort applied during the cast is separate from the tempo of the cast...

2. The line will follow the tip and travel in the direction of momentum...

3. For every action there is a reaction...

4. To form a forward cast, a loop of line must be brought behind the rod tip...

5.  Keep the rod under load during the cast by moving it in a continuous motion...



Now to address some of the rules Aitor so kindly posted:

1.- You must get the end of the fly line moving before you can make a back or forward cast. (I would say what about 40' bow and arrow cast with fly dangling below line hand-35' of line is shot)

2.- Once the line is moving the only way to load the rod is to move the casting hand at an ever-increasing speed and then bring it to a quick stop. (What about negative (underpowered) casts that we use on the stream maybe 30% of the time. Here we decelerate the rod for underpowered casts.)

3.- The line will go in the direction the rod tip speeds up and stops -more specifically, it goes in the direction that the rod straightens when the rod hand stops. (To clarify this one and make it correct--read #2 above)

My point is rules have too many shortcomings. I have always treasured those resources that stimulate ideas from a basis of concepts first. That is the only way we grow the sport down the road.

Cheers, Mac


--------------
http://macbrownflyfish.com

Casting definitions
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 18
Prinsviggo Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 567
Joined: Mar. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2009,08:29 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi, a little bit off topic but not in a way. How do you explain rod loading when asked for it during FFF CCI?

I'd say; For every action there is a reaction. In order to accelerate an object with a mass (the line) you need a force and a reaction force. The reaction force loads the rod in the opposit direction of the line travel.

Typically I'v been told something like this.

The rod will load under the resistance from the mass of the line when accelerating it...

What answer would be enough to pass?

Sorry Mike but in a way it relates to the thread, Al Buhr's #3 :)

Best regards
/Staffan


--------------
Staffan
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 19
Paul Arden Search for posts by this member.
Fly God 2010
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 25671
Joined: Jul. 2003
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2009,09:22 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Staffan,

I think when the rod loading question was written it was thought that rod loading was much more significant that it is known to be now. In fact I suspect that many believed that rod loading was everything: bend the rod, stop the rod, unload the rod and that's your cast - I believe that to be the case because it was said that the Double Haul worked simply be increasing rod load.

However that idea didn't taken into account line speed delivered through leverage - ie as the casting stroke is made the tip moves the line, not just bending the rod. Bruce and Noel worked out rod loading to leverage being around 50/50, but it appears that there was an error in that calculation and the spring only really accounts for 15-20% of the cast, while leverage is 80-85%. Torsten came up with that figure through calculation a number of years ago and Grunde later backed it up with high speed video analysis. What this means is that the main purpose of the rod bending is really about turning rotational motion into a straight line tip path.

That's too much for a CI exam and it may or may not create an argument, even here. So I think it's enough to say that a loaded rod is a bent rod.

Cheers, Paul


--------------
It's an exploration; bring flyrods.

Flycasting Definitions
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 20
Prinsviggo Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 567
Joined: Mar. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2009,10:07 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks for enlighten me Paul, it is really nice to read the simple ending. A loaded rod is indeed a rod that is bent (and now there will come a question whether a horizontal rod is loaded when it bends under its own weight :D )

Just pull the leader/line and show the audience a loaded rod and say, this is what your rod will look like when casting. More or less depending on length of line and acceleration that is.

Cheers, Staffan

PS I could see the guys had a great time in Piteå, wish I could be there (or in other words, next time...)


--------------
Staffan
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
46 replies since Sep. 05 2009,18:06 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


Page 2 of 5<<12345>>
reply to topic new topic

» Quick Reply Fly casting
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code