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easterncaster
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 12:11 pm
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Location: New York, USA

Welcome Bruce Richards

#51

Post by easterncaster »

Hi Bruce,

As a certain spey guru in Oregon told me, "A taper is just a taper" ... but... I have a line that I really, really like. It's not made anymore. If I were to measure it, or probably better send it in, could a custom batch be made by say a certain 'Quality Line Company'? If so, how many lines make up a batch?

Thanks,
Craig
John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#52

Post by John Waters »

G'Day Bruce,

Many years ago I did some experimentation with 15 metre long shooting heads (half a double taper) to identify whether a small back taper of approx. 1 metre was an advantage. Have you any thoughts on whether such a back taper would impact loop formation and loop speed?

Thanks in advance,

John
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gordonjudd
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:36 pm
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Location: Southern California

Welcome Bruce Richards

#53

Post by gordonjudd »

I've been in competitions where a soft 7' 2 wt rod was used because there wasn't much space for distance casting... The winning cast was still over 80 ft.!
Bruce,

Do you think that distance would increase as the line wt used with the 2 wt rod was increased up to the point that someone broke the rod?

I ask because MCI Eric Sherar said he tried casting lines ranging from 2 wt to 12 wt on a 5 wt rod and found that he got more distance as the line weight increased.

Gordy
Bruce Richards
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:38 am
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#54

Post by Bruce Richards »

easterncaster wrote:Hi Bruce,

As a certain spey guru in Oregon told me, "A taper is just a taper" ... but... I have a line that I really, really like. It's not made anymore. If I were to measure it, or probably better send it in, could a custom batch be made by say a certain 'Quality Line Company'? If so, how many lines make up a batch?

Thanks,
Craig
Hi Craig,
Any taper is easy to copy. And yes, custom batches can be made, but..... A fair amount of work is needed to just get to the point where a line can be made for sale. The cost of that work must be added to the cost of the lines made. If the number is small, the cost/line is high. And of course, time must be spent where the return is greatest, small batch runs never make that cut. Sorry, but them's the cold hard facts!
Something to think about... If the line isn't made anymore it most likely is NOT because someone made all the money they could ever want making and it just stopped. It's much more likely that it wasn't selling well, not many people wanted it. If that's the case, until that situation changes, it probably won't be made again...
Bruce
Bruce Richards
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:38 am
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#55

Post by Bruce Richards »

John Waters wrote:G'Day Bruce,

Many years ago I did some experimentation with 15 metre long shooting heads (half a double taper) to identify whether a small back taper of approx. 1 metre was an advantage. Have you any thoughts on whether such a back taper would impact loop formation and loop speed?

Thanks in advance,

John
Hi John, good question.. Rear tapers are relatively important. The issue is about what happens when the radical change in mass travels around the radius of the loop front. There is a rapid change of direction there. If there is also a rapid change in mass, especially from lighter to heavier (as when there is no rear taper), the line will "kick" down a bit. This isn't a big deal, it throws some slack in the bottom leg that is eventually pulled out, but it does disrupt things enough to be bothersome to some casters. SA makes some shooting lines called "Dragon Tail", they are designed to remedy this. Most SLs are just level, the Dragon Tails taper larger at the end that attaches to the head, a rear taper. There are several versions of these, smaller diameter ones are sold in Japan. In the U.S. only large dia. (.078") spey versions are available. Of course, you could pretty simply modify your shooting line with a couple splices to more closely match the back of your head.
Bruce
Bruce Richards
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#56

Post by Bruce Richards »

gordonjudd wrote:
I've been in competitions where a soft 7' 2 wt rod was used because there wasn't much space for distance casting... The winning cast was still over 80 ft.!
Bruce,

Do you think that distance would increase as the line wt used with the 2 wt rod was increased up to the point that someone broke the rod?

I ask because MCI Eric Sherar said he tried casting lines ranging from 2 wt to 12 wt on a 5 wt rod and found that he got more distance as the line weight increased.

Gordy
Hi Gordy,
I doubt that Eric made his longest casts with the 12 wt. line on the #5 rod, more likely the line would have been a 7 or 8. And I think there are too many variables to make any blanket statement on this subject. Eric is a VERY talented caster and knows exactly how to adjust his cast to the gear.

Bending the rod more does yield more tip/line speed, all else being equal. But while increasing line weight will increase rod bend, it will also reduce the speed of the unbending of the rod, it's pulling more mass. So you end up with a heavier line going a little slower. This might well result in more distance. But I'm sure there is a limit to how far you can take this, and yes, rod breakage would be one of those limits. For most casters though, breaking a rod by casting is very difficult or impossible, even if uplining by a couple sizes. I've asked Noel Perkins for his thoughts on this, hopefully he'll have time for a quick response..
Bruce
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Paul Arden
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#57

Post by Paul Arden »

Bruce, would I be correct in saying that most modern line tapers are designed around inadequate casting abilities? (Actually I know I'm right in saying this!). So, consequently, would it not be a good idea to base instructor exams around the DT? Or conversely, maybe they should all be based around weird bullet-type (specialist-in-the-right-hands/application) tapers?

Anyway, fast sinking tropical DTs I'm in need of... Me and no-one else! For me these short weird heads land like a brick and I need line configuration on landing that doesn't look like a dustbin, but more often a mend or curve.

Learning the Madison definitely sound a like a great plan. Especially if it includes Hebgen. Hebgen really grabbed me and is somewhere where I can spend a lot of time. Soon hopefully!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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John Finn
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:35 pm
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#58

Post by John Finn »

Bruce do lines shrink with age ? Have been looking at some old lines today and it would explain what I'm seeing. eg an old 4wt appears thinner than a new 3wt just judging by sight.........................John
Bruce Richards
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:38 am
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#59

Post by Bruce Richards »

Paul Arden wrote:Bruce, would I be correct in saying that most modern line tapers are designed around inadequate casting abilities? (Actually I know I'm right in saying this!). So, consequently, would it not be a good idea to base instructor exams around the DT? Or conversely, maybe they should all be based around weird bullet-type (specialist-in-the-right-hands/application) tapers?

Anyway, fast sinking tropical DTs I'm in need of... Me and no-one else! For me these short weird heads land like a brick and I need line configuration on landing that doesn't look like a dustbin, but more often a mend or curve.

Learning the Madison definitely sound a like a great plan. Especially if it includes Hebgen. Hebgen really grabbed me and is somewhere where I can spend a lot of time. Soon hopefully!

Cheers, Paul
Paul, I'm happy to say that I can again say that you are wrong! Fly lines are not like race cars, cars that are very difficult for average drivers to drive but absolutely necessary for winning. The most specialized distance line we make, the MED, is a great line for beginners/intermediates. Any of todays lines that are built on the powerful end of the spectrum work well for beginners as they turnover well even with poor loops. Also, lines that are made for mass market sale must work well for BOTH the avg. buyer and the experts. Mfgs. depend on experts, especially guides, instructors, and shop guys, liking lines and recommending them to others. Fortunately that's easy to do. Sure there are some radical, fringe lines that aren't beginner friendly, but it's unlikely they'd ever buy one.
Either test can be passed using almost any line, although the MCI test is a bit easier with a line with a longer head (or DT) due to the long roll cast.

I'll get right on your tropical DT's! We've been getting LOTS of requests for them and I'm sure they will be a huge seller in 2017! Don't remind me if it seems I've forgotten, I'm sure I wont..

The Madison is incredibly diverse and big, hard to learn/know it all. It changes dramatically from headwaters in Yellowstone Park, through Hebgen and Quake Lakes, "the riffle", then Ennis Lake then "lower" and into the Missouri. Lots of big fish in every part, but very different fishing. 183 miles of diversity!
Bruce
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Jason Borger
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Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:25 pm
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Welcome Bruce Richards

#60

Post by Jason Borger »

Bruce Richards wrote:The Madison is incredibly diverse and big, hard to learn/know it all. It changes dramatically from headwaters in Yellowstone Park, through Hebgen and Quake Lakes, "the riffle", then Ennis Lake then "lower" and into the Missouri. Lots of big fish in every part, but very different fishing. 183 miles of diversity!
Bruce
FWIW--My favorite "big" river in the entire U.S. A bit jealous of the time you'll be able to devote to it...
I grew up surrounded by fish, flies, and water.
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