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Geenomad
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New to the bord Fredrikstad, Norway

#31

Post by Geenomad »

Dag Midtgard wrote:What I feel is both the loading of the rod in the forward and backward cast/stroke, both from the casting hand and the hauling hand...

Seems like there is a big trend inside sexyloops to not feel anything while casting nor when the line loads the rod, nor when the hauling loads/bend the rod...

How come??
HI Dag
Welcome to the Board. FWIW I think what you are feeling is actually the resistance of the line and the rod and your body parts to being accelerated after a change of direction. Traditionally this has been called "rod loading".

Understanding what is happening at different stages of the cast in the physics domain is only meaningful to me if it helps me cast better. That is, I find physics and its discussion useful when it stays anchored in the context of casting. I actually find it downright annoying when the discussion becomes removed/abstracted from that context and "descends" into definitional debates.

For my $0.02AUD rod loading is an ok reference or shorthand to what the caster should be feeling and that they should be noticing what they are feeling. However, it gets thrown overboard because understanding that the rod is primarily a lever and that the bending of it helps keep the rod tip (and thus fly line) moving in a straight line offers me more. 1) In conceptualising what I need to do and 2) feeling what it is like when I do that better (or worse). Then I can work on reproducing that "good" feeling and detecting the "bad" feeling more reliably.

I can load and unload rod in both a good casting stroke and in a bad one. In fact I can probably feel more "rod loading" in a crappy over powered cast than in a good cast. As a form of feedback (essential to movement control) "rod loading", is useful in "telling" me to maintain line tension and thus stay in touch with the line. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything about tracking, tracing or otherwise optimising my casting in straight lines.

Also and finally, thinking about the rod as a catapult is more likely to encourage overpowering which usually means over rotating which counter intuitively means shorter casts and piles of spaghetti. Thinking of it as a stick/lever to be moved in straight lines works better for me and my casting. As ever mileage varies. :)

Cheers
Mark
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Paul Arden
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#32

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Dag,

The haul doesn't work by loading the rod deeper. It works because it directly adds line speed - we are directly accelerating the line while pulling it through the rings.

Of course hauling does add load, but it adds load at a time when the rod tip is unloading and hence actually works against the elastic energy in the rod. It's just that the direct line speed addition is greater than the loss caused by loading slowing the rod tip.

The move away from "loading" description started some 18 years ago and has certainly filtered itself into instructor circles as a consequence.

When I'm casting a 5MED on the HT10 I'm not trying to feel rod loading! I realise that's an unusual set up but it casts further than soft rods that experience far greater rod load.

Cheers, Paul
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Dag Midtgard
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#33

Post by Dag Midtgard »

Thanks for two great answers... Paul/Mark...

Paul...
- so, if the Resistance in the other end starts at an earlier stage than «your» haul, in order to act like some sort of the second fixed point in a bow, what is happening then...

- I doubt it is possible to do any hauling without adding flex/load to the rod as long as you have not reached the rods max flex prior to your hauling movements are set in... at that point hauling will maybe not add load/flex, but sustain/keep the flex, until you let the line go...

- do you know what the bow-community calls it when loading the bow? Could there be any similar things going on... rod with hauling and «loading» a bow?
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#34

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Dag, I'm quite sure that if you watch your video of hauling you will see that you also haul to Rod Straight Position - and possibly beyond. It certainly doesn't keep the flex in the rod and the rod unloads as we haul. The only time the rod behaves as a bow is in a pure bow and arrow cast with a fixed rod butt. It's not very efficient (but a useful cast none-the-less) and not going to break any distance records!

Cheers, Paul
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Dag Midtgard
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#35

Post by Dag Midtgard »

I have slowed down the video to see, and at full flex, the haul is in the middle of its way, so I must say that I diagree with the saying that the haul does not affect the loading/flexing of the rod during the early stage of the cast...

How is this documented, and is it for distance cast this is true?
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#36

Post by Paul Arden »

Ok but your haul continues as the rod is unloading?
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#37

Post by Paul Arden »

While it is true that hauling right through the stroke will cause a little bit more loading on the rod (remember rod loading accounts for around 20% of the energy given to the line), hauling through to RSP will reduce tip speed. Finishing the haul at MCL (minimum chord length - max flex) will cause a tailing loop. However whatever our haul speed peaks at will result in direct additional line speed. So if you haul at 10m/s the line speed will be 10m/s faster. This is the main purpose behind hauling ie direct additional line speed.

Cheers, Paul
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Dag Midtgard
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#38

Post by Dag Midtgard »

Hmmm.... just wondering, is there a difference in the use of a hold or a haul. Can a hold be a weak haul, and, if the hold/haul does not have effect on the loading of the rod, the counterstring so to be in abow-picture, how can the rod be bent during a cast? Without that hold/haul I can not see how we are going to bend the rod, thus getting some sort of stored energy in the rod out in the line?
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Merlin
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#39

Post by Merlin »

This is not the right place for technicalities, but here is some physics, something which can be useful sometime:

Hauling is an effective mechanism to increase line speed. The straightforward explanation coming to our mind is that if we add speed to (line) speed, it must be effective. If this was the only phenomenon involved, then the most desirable timing for peak haul velocity (PHV) would be just before rod straight position, when tip speed is maximal. There would not be any side effect, the line sliding inside the guides, so we can wonder why one can get a tailing loop when one hauls the line.

To identify the cause of a tail in the line, in other words the cause of a drop in the tip path leading to that tail, we need Mr. Newton’s help. I shall keep things as simple as possible to ease the understanding of the phenomenon, so there can be some shortcut. Without hauling, the force at tip pulling on the line (line mass * line acceleration) equals the force deflecting the (spring of) the rod (rod stiffness * rod deflection). We create energy in the line by moving that force over the distance covered by the tip of the rod. Thus a good idea is to increase the distance along which the force acting on the line is moved, and this is what we do with the haul. In practice, the line outside the guides is shortened (by the haul distance) and its speed is increased, and then Mr. Newton tells us that we have created another force on the spring: changing mass and or speed changes the momentum of the line (which equals the product of both), and corresponds to a force. The famous F=ma is a simplification of this first law by considering that m (mass) remains a constant. The increase in force is highest when the change in line momentum is highest, that is to say at the peak acceleration of the haul. And this peak acceleration always takes place during the first half of the haul, before PHV (for PHV the acceleration of the haul is nil).

So not only do we move a force over an increased distance, but we move a higher force over this longer distance. This is a kind of kiss cool effect. The increase in energy that we can produce like that can be pretty large (e.g. 50% more energy for the line) since we place the haul at a moment when the force on the spring is at its highest. However there is always a price to pay for that, and guess what, this is the risk for a tail in the fly leg.

Since we create an added force on the spring, the rod is bending a little bit further and if the rod butt is still back from vertical at this time, then the tip moves down from its trajectory. So we realize that in unfavorable conditions, we can get a tail and that this is a question of timing for the haul. The side effect of the haul is less visible on the tip path if the pull angle is beyond 90 degrees from the rod butt, the extra deflection being practically in line with the tip path. The conclusion is that it is better to haul late in the cast to minimize the risk of tail.

If we concentrate on this side effect of the haul, there is some logic to think that the extra force should follow the bending propensity of the rod coming from the cast itself. This synch within cast and haul maximizes the extra elastic energy storage due to the haul (e.g. by one third). If there is a difference in synch, then the rod gets two signals to bend down that might come at a different time and it either troubles the rate of bending of the rod or eventually the side effect of the haul could oppose the unloading of the rod if the haul comes very late. Bad luck indeed because the direct effect of the haul, the added speed, is always there and cannot easily be synchronized with the side effect of the haul: one is depending on PHV, the other one on peak haul acceleration, and they do not take place at the same time. Gods of mechanics are of no help here despite the delay in rod response; getting the best of both effects is limited to stiff/fast rods (e.g. from #10 or something), but variation in performance remain small as long as the haul takes place within the right window of time. This window can cover the time range between MAV and RSP for stiff/fast rods, but gets smaller and closer to MAV for soft/slow rods. One can “overhaul” a trout rod.

In terms of extra speed generated, the side effect is more effective than the direct effect, but the side effect brings the risk of tail in the fly leg. There is good news here; it means that there is some window for hauling: either you try to get the best from the direct effect; either you try to get the best from the side effect with a risk of tail. If PHV falls within maximum angular velocity and rod straight position, e.g. right in the middle, then this is a fair compromise. Bad luck again because it appears easier to haul and rotate at the same time (MAV).

For a fisherman, hauling late is on the safe side of haul time tuning, maybe not the best speed but no tail to fear about, for the competition caster his interest is to come as close as possible to the “tail zone” and get the best of line speed. In that case the competition caster has to produce a higher torque to make the cast at a given pace (e.g. 25% more torque, but in practice the caster may react by limiting this torque increase). It may appear awkward to tune but some studies show that trained casters are able to adapt their haul timing to the casting conditions.

It is also wiser to use a speedy long distance haul than a brutal short haul. I trained myself hauling but I was highly influenced by the side effect of the haul which I could see in my experiments, and guess what, I have to suffer from a bad habit and get a tail in the fly leg quite often. The cure is to stop hauling short and use a long progressive haul. I really learned it wrong with a sharp haul close to maximum rod bend after reading a book on casting (maximum rod bend happens shortly after maximum angular velocity).

In terms of tackle, a faster/stiffer one can withstand a haul on the earlier side of timing (a stiffer rod is less prone to bending and is more resistant to the side effect), whilst a slower tackle needs a haul on the later side of the “hauling window”, it tends to drive a tail more easily. Hauling within the right window of time needs training for sure, and watching your cast can help tuning the haul with the cast.

Hope this is understandable :D :pirate: :sorcerer:

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life
Dag Midtgard
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#40

Post by Dag Midtgard »

Lasse!
Still waiting for your suggestions....

However, the video you show a link to may be a hood one standing where you stand, on the grass... however, I am a flyfisherman, not a flacasterman, and to be frankly the cast you show I can not see any use for in a fishing situation... why? Just becsuse when fishin you very often are standing in water to knee high, and, your loop/leader end is very low, almost knee/waist..

I have all respect for you as a caster/fisherman, but then it would be good that we discuss casting on the same premises, fishing or casting...
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