PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Rod and reel balance

Moderator: Torsten

John Waters
Posts: 2147
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Answers: 0

Rod and reel balance

#31

Post by John Waters »

Hi Daniel and Gordy,

Apologies for my delay in response but my training partner has not been available, he is back this week so I will get some specific cast distances recorded and forward. However let me try and describe what has happened to date.

Firstly, I have had a few casting sessions with and without the reel. The longest casts are made with the reel. The original positioning was 3 cms higher on the rod than you proposed but I transferred it down the rod to match your calculated position. My normal cast is to block the rod as hard as I can with my bottom hand. I also use the top hand for the same outcome but it is the bottom hand that I feel that power block with my bottom hand more than my top hand. That being said, casting without a reel was strange as I have used a reel on this type of rod for decades so that is understandable. However, I thought that without the mass of the reel to contend with, it would be easier to make my power blocks however, I did not feel that was the case. My impression that without the reel transferred the majority of the power block function of the cast to my upper hand. Maybe it was because the lack of mass (reel) associated with my bottom hand and the top heavy feeling of the tip put much more reliance on my top hand to block the rod at the right angle to launch the line on the desired trajectory. The casting sessions were in very calm conditions with water laden air. The other thing I noticed was with the reel, I was able to get the line to release on a higher trajectory and not have post RSP tip movement impact the backend of the line as much as it did without the reel.

More work and experimentation to be done and will keep you posted. I will also do the same with my single handed rod (T38) line.

John
User avatar
gordonjudd
Posts: 1858
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:36 pm
Answers: 0
Location: Southern California

Rod and reel balance

#32

Post by gordonjudd »

I was able to get the line to release on a higher trajectory and not have post RSP tip movement impact the backend of the line as much as it did without the reel.
John,
Thanks for the update. I know it is not easy to make videos on your own.

Are you saying the amount of counterflex was smaller with the reel attached than it was without a reel on the rod? In terms of trajectory are you saying it was easier to stop the rod earlier in the cast (and get a higher trajectory) with the reel attached compared to producing a later stop without the reel?

Also by "backend" of the line are you referring to the rod leg? Was the observed impact on the backend(i.e. rod leg) of the line related to having more ripples running down the rod leg that were caused by larger and more sustained tip vibrations?

If "backend" was referring to the fly leg, what was the impact you saw?

Do you have a phone that will take high speed videos? Paul produced some very useful 240 fps videos with his iPhone. It would be interesting to see what your angular velocity profile looks like with and without a reel, as the whole argument about reducing the the MOI of the rod/reel combination by removing the reel implies that you can get higher angular velocities (and faster stops) for a given amount of torque with a smaller MOI than a higher one.
The casting sessions were in very calm conditions with water laden air.
We all know how much wind can impact distance casts, so trying to do this in calm conditions is a good control factor.

Moisture should not have much of an effect as the density of air is actually slightly less in high humidity conditions than it is in low ones. Why air density decreases with humidity Bernd pointed out that the impact of humidity on density is very small at 25 deg C (77 F) however so I don't think humidity will have a measurable effect on casting distance.
Image

Gordy
John Waters
Posts: 2147
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Answers: 0

Rod and reel balance

#33

Post by John Waters »

"Are you saying the amount of counterflex was smaller with the reel attached than it was without a reel on the rod? In terms of trajectory are you saying it was easier to stop the rod earlier in the cast (and get a higher trajectory) with the reel attached compared to producing a later stop without the reel?"

Hi Gordy, sorry for the delay in response, have had a few things interrupt my life as a caster recently but normality will resume in next week or so. I do not think the amount of counter flex changed with or without reel but a video will prove or disprove that. However with extreme casting the important thing is how much impact that counter flex has on the rod leg. I felt it is easier to block/stop the rod on release when the reel was attached because I felt my bottom had had more impact.

"Also by "backend" of the line are you referring to the rod leg? Was the observed impact on the backend (i.e. rod leg) of the line related to having more ripples running down the rod leg that were caused by larger and more sustained tip vibrations?"

Sorry about my terminology but "back end of the line" refers to the rod leg. The observation today is that ripples were not a problem or an issue but the counter flex pulls the rod leg downwards and distance suffers. AS an analogy may I compare the rod leg on my line to a 5 weight caster using a 170 technique and powering the rod leg of the line downward and having the loop morph into a straight line shape. That's fine for light gear but with this gear it is a disaster as the line will not morph like 25 plus metres of a 5 weight does.

I'll get video for you to analyse.

John
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Rod and reel balance

#34

Post by Paul Arden »

I think humidity has a measurable result on casting. The problem is in isolating it!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
User avatar
VGB
Posts: 6128
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:04 pm
Answers: 0

Rod and reel balance

#35

Post by VGB »

I agree Paul, humidity doesn't only affect atmospheric conditions but will also cause the line, leader and fluff to be wet.

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
User avatar
Merlin
Posts: 2101
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:12 pm
Answers: 0
Location: France

Rod and reel balance

#36

Post by Merlin »

Hi everyone

After some discussions outside the board with DH casters, it seems we are approaching the understanding of the node issue. The best place for the node would be the upper hand of the caster as the rod is carrying the line. It would allow controlling and driving the rod without having the upper hand disturbed by rod reaction, all of it being transferred to the lower hand as the time comes to stop the rod. It also allows using a higher frequency for the rod (the first free-free one instead of the first fixed-free one) which can make the cast more efficient (in terms of distance).

I let John comment on this point, maybe this is particular to competition casting, but a check on a fishing rod appears to tell the same story. I illustrated a recommendation by comparison to the one of the trebuchet, just to give an idea of the spirit of the tuning of rod and reel balance.

If you cannot move the reel position, then you should adapt the position of your upper hand, or eventually play with reel mass tuning (see the beginning of the thread). A trebuchet appears to me as something of last resort, but a potential solution.
DH scheme.JPG
DH scheme.JPG (18.23 KiB) Viewed 7862 times
Bloke DH.JPG
Bloke DH.JPG (31.68 KiB) Viewed 7862 times
Merlin DH.JPG
Merlin DH.JPG (36.18 KiB) Viewed 7862 times
Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life
User avatar
gordonjudd
Posts: 1858
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:36 pm
Answers: 0
Location: Southern California

Rod and reel balance

#37

Post by gordonjudd »

Does the above include line on the reel and if so should we not calculate points when say 30 feet of line is out of the rod i.e. if that is the average length cast?

Or, does that make no difference at all?
Merlin,
How does John's line mass observation affect the choice of tip mass you would add to get the balance point (I assume that is the c.g. of the rod/reel/line set-up) you recommend below.
Image

What would a typical B distance need to be to get the node for the free-free mode to be at the location of the upper hand?

I don't know how the translation of the rod and its impact on the instant center of rotation would impact this node location, but as discussed on the old board the instant center of rotation of the butt is not at the supposed "fulcrum" point at the upper hand.


Gordy
User avatar
Merlin
Posts: 2101
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:12 pm
Answers: 0
Location: France

Rod and reel balance

#38

Post by Merlin »

Hi Gordy

My intention was not to say that the center of rotation of the cast is at the node level, but just to illustrate the location of the node in the frame of the rod. The hand trajectories influence the center of rotation, but not the node IMHO. My conclusion is that my scheme is confusing.

The current recommandation is something "hybrid". It is easier for someone to put his reel on the seat with the line wounded and then look for the balance point which is usually a few inches above the handle. So I take the "midreel" position under these circumstances, and I use it as the reference point for the node when the usual amount of line for the rod is outside the guides. It would not be practical to locate the "loaded" midreel point by coiling line at the top of the rod and look for the balance point and the midpoint in such conditions.

Using calculations, I can locate the node "under load" and look for a simple relationship with the position of the midreel point "unloaded". This is why there is a 1.3 coefficient which is there at this time, it could be lower as more data are available (e.g. 1.25 or even 1.2). For a caster, once you have located the "unloaded" midreel point, you add some 30% to the distance from the butt and the node you are looking after under loaded conditions should be close. There is nothing but practical testing to test that concept, I use approximate model for the rods, and I cannot be precise with my calculations.

One conclusion would be (I am cautious) that you should not bring the balance point "unloaded" under your upper hand, but you should keep it above the hand, just as for a SH rod.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life
Lou Bruno
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:16 pm
Answers: 0

Rod and reel balance

#39

Post by Lou Bruno »

I can recall images of Mel Krieger using some type of offset reel holder. Sorry, I can't remember the manufacturer, but isn't that design based on positioning the casting hand to balance the system?
Anyone know if that reel holder is available?

Lou
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Rod and reel balance

#40

Post by Paul Arden »

I believe that was Mel's idea. Certainly that's what I heard.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting Physics”