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less line speed for more distance

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Bernd Ziesche
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less line speed for more distance

#1

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:42 pm

Hi everyone. ;)
Have been deeply into fishing for quite a while. Time to join some of the fine discussions here again! :cool: :D

Some time ago I was sitting in a tree above Paul's forward distance cast in order to identify the cause for (what we back then called) the distance phenomenon. Lots of slomos were involved in the discussion afterwards. The cause and it's details were all in those vids, but we didn't see/understand them at that time.

Later on I found the cause and since then didn't stop to further investigate. Of course once you understand a cause you start to realize things that you never did before...

Paul and I back then also didn't find the reason why almost all my none hauled casts ended up pretty straight, nicely unrolled while the hauled ones always broke out to the line hand side (distance phenomenon) in windless conditions. I remember Mike (Heritage) saying "Ok, now Bernd was here and we all know that our distance casting sucks." :D

Some weeks ago I found another piece of the puzzle.
Comparing my none hauled casts with the hauled ones means:
For the none hauled ones...
a) I use pull back in my back cast, which helps me to straighten out the unrolled line a lot.
b) I aerialize litte less line and therefore get little less line sack, too.
c) I create less line speed in the forward cast. Due to that my line end will be moved in a significant straightened path. This was (I think) the key understanding I was missing.

When having a line sack in my back cast and then starting the forward cast with immense acceleration I just pronounce the line end crossing over in the end of the cast. Reducing line speed helps me to reach greater distance instead. That is unless I get a tailwind. The tailwind helps to get the line straight anyway. The stronger the wind will be, the more I can increase line speed and get properly away with some line sack.

So for me in windless days there is a "sweet level" in line speed for my distance casts based on how big the line sack in the final bc will be.
If I pass/overcome it, my fc gets worse and worse. Experimenting with all this has helped me a great deal in understanding distance casting.

From the technical point of view from you fine physicists here does this make sense to you? :

Image

My conclusion though would be, that less line speed shortens fly-path for the actual cast based on a given line sack in the unrolled (previous) cast. Of course less line speed unless it gets too little...

This would also help to answer the often discussed question why we often hit nearly the same distance while reducing line speed quite significantly.

Thanks a lot for your professional views!
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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hshl
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less line speed for more distance

#2

Post by hshl » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:40 pm

... I like this video much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Kspq5ApW4 . Gavin achieves high distances by using smooth, soft and rather "slower" casting strokes. Maybe this contributes to some interesting answers ...
Cheers
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All in its proper time ...

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Graeme H
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less line speed for more distance

#3

Post by Graeme H » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:08 pm

Hi Bernd,

I'm not fully understanding the concept you're describing but it doesn't "seem" right to me. If the starting conditions are the same between the two casts, then more line speed should produce a longer cast, all other things being equal.

It would be very interesting to use a video camera to watch the difference between your two casts. Modern phones have a pretty good slow motion mode now and you should be able to spot what's different.

Is there a conscious reason you don't apply pull-back on the back cast when you're hauling? Shouldn't you be trying to straighten that back cast out before you initiate the front cast on both hauled and non-hauled casts?

In your diagram, the line speed itself should not make the line drop lower. If it does, that's because you pulled it down there and not in the intended direction of up and forward. You've labelled the starting position as "identical unrolled lines" but neither is fully unrolled. If I was watching that in real time, I'd be asking you to make a tighter loop on the back cast and wait a bit longer for it to actually become straight before the front cast starts. That tip section will be pulled down when you cast forward.

But I'm teaching you to suck eggs here. Sorry .... ;)

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

Geenomad
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less line speed for more distance

#4

Post by Geenomad » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:53 pm

Hi Bernd
I can see what you are saying. It's another case of "straight lines rule" imho. This notion is a bit more subtle than speed beats gravity so line speed equals distance.

Graeme, maybe the thing about straighter versus more curvy line paths is that all things are not equal. Force, directional purity and all that. Vectoral simplicity?

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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Bernd Ziesche
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less line speed for more distance

#5

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:26 am

hshl wrote:Maybe this contributes to some interesting answers ...
Hi Tobias,
thanks for the link! That video indeed shows exactly what I have experienced myself. Gavin did (nearly) exactly what I do. Pretty similuar style and speed - my gf immediately said. His distance is enormous for such (I think) relatievely low (max) speed. Looks to me like he could increase acceleration quite some. But I doubt he would cast significant (if any) further.

Hi Graeme,
Graeme H wrote: If the starting conditions are the same between the two casts, then more line speed should produce a longer cast, all other things being equal.
I believe this is exactly what most fly casting experts would agree with. Why I started this thread... :cool:
Graeme H wrote: Is there a conscious reason you don't apply pull-back on the back cast when you're hauling? Shouldn't you be trying to straighten that back cast out before you initiate the front cast on both hauled and non-hauled casts?
Yes, there is. When I cast hauling included I aerialize little more line and that needs little more line speed. If I stop too early my arc gets too small to gain enough line speed for that longer line. Using pull-back on a wider arc doesn't work at all for me. The pull-back then goes in the wrong direction. That is why casting rod hand only (when having little less line aerialized) I still can create the desired line speed on an arc small enough to add pull-back.
Graeme H wrote: In your diagram, the line speed itself should not make the line drop lower. If it does, that's because you pulled it down there and not in the intended direction of up and forward. You've labelled the starting position as "identical unrolled lines" but neither is fully unrolled. If I was watching that in real time, I'd be asking you to make a tighter loop on the back cast and wait a bit longer for it to actually become straight before the front cast starts.
Got your point, mate! It's just that yet I have to see a single (first ever) caster who does get the long bc carry fully straight and not having the dangling end coming in on the next fc. I doubt this is possible. There is mostly room to improve little, yes. But to make the line end move in a straight path in the direction of the cast all the way to the target, I am afraid, will always be impossible for all of us. The line end can only follow the direction of that line part in front of it (usually downwards to some degree for long carries). My sketch above is drawn litte extrem for better understanding what I am after. My point is, that when I am pulling stronger into the curved (unrolled) line when starting the new cast, I force the line end more down and it then will also be moved more upwards afterwards. Additional line speed here doesn't help (me) anymore, when it lengthens the path for my line end - especially when finally ending up in breaking of to the line hand side (pls. find the sketch below).

Not sure you have seen this one: ?
Image
Regards
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Bernd Ziesche
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less line speed for more distance

#6

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:30 am

Geenomad wrote:Hi Bernd
I can see what you are saying. It's another case of "straight lines rule" imho.
Hi Mark,
exactly! But as I said some years ago: "In fly casting there is no straight!" :p :D
I think there is still a lot to learn in regard of what path our line end is being moved and how we did that.
For too long it was said, that "the line goes wherever the tip goes." The longer our carry gets, the less this holds true especially for the line end.
Cheers
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Geenomad
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less line speed for more distance

#7

Post by Geenomad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:50 am

Hi Bernd
Sure mate. I understand but here we are applying Newtonian physics in a relative universe. :cool: :D

Straight is still an ideal even if there isn't much of it in absolute terms.

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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Graeme H
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less line speed for more distance

#8

Post by Graeme H » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm

Okay. Well, do you have the same problem with the front cast not getting straight enough before a long back cast? Do you see these same shapes during the back cast? (Not the end of it, but while you're making it.) There should be some sort of symmetry in the loop shapes front and rear and if you can get the right shape on the straightened out front cast, you should also be able to get it on the back cast.

I know I'm not the greatest caster here, but I really think it should be possible to get that back cast close enough to straight with enough power directed properly. This video shows it's possible at lesser distances with a lesser caster. Someone like you or Paul should be able to generate a higher back-cast speed and tighter loop shape than me and thus carry more line prior to the final front cast.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

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Paul Arden
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less line speed for more distance

#9

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm

I don't think less line speed gives more distance! But what is perhaps surprising is how close the distances are between very little speed and lots of speed. It's maybe only a few metres.

Cheers, Paul
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Paul Arden
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less line speed for more distance

#10

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:24 pm

Even if the line is perfectly straight the 170 lifts the tip above the line creating the dangling end.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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