less line speed for more distance

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Mike

What particular wc clip are you refering to? I was there, and calm conditions would have been a dream

Cheers
Lasse

Ps. I used to put one of the greatest casters I know, of when having a shootout, simply by saying use less power and more speed..

[Michal Duzynski]

ciao Lasse
I was refering to 2016 finals in Trout Distance. I know you like clear and precise statments, so my "judge called 33m" example is not exact, but not far from true.
Anyway, I still try to understand Bernd. How slow is slow enought for perfect layout, and how fast is to fast that gives us shity layout of line/leader during delivery cast.
Isnt it on the end what work for us?
mike

[John Waters]

Hi Lasse, I see the forward roll of the shoulder as unique to Steve on his delivery, compared to others. That sets up his upper arm and lower arm movement. The others move their arm forward and straighten their elbow without that initial stability and power. It all starts with the joints and muscle groups "upstream" of the body segment under focus.

John

[Michal Duzynski]

I had a good session today.
My observations are
SPEED IS GOOD- RUSHING YOUR CAST IS NOT.
I had a good wind and try to get as many long casts as I could- things went shit.
I stop and focused on all the details, I had controled ( not rushed) body movement, but still going for a fast line speed and results where there.

It's like at my work- I tell my staff to be fast, but no rush as there is a lot of difference there.
cheers
mike

[Bernd Ziesche]

Velocity implies direction, speed doesn't.
So I want my line to have a high speed in the desired direction I'm casting.
And in windless as in windy conditions I want acceleration to be as high as possible without introducing errors like the tracking mistake you showed in your last drawing. Thats alot of speed wasted in a poor direction.

Hi Lasse,
I am pretty sure that by checking your distance cast in slow motion from different angles we will always find potential to straighten the path that your line end goes from the unrolled position behind to the target in front. That path on long shoots in my experience of filming many expert casters always was significant off slp.
From what I have seen I would make a bet that by far not always the one caster achieving the highest line speed won the competition. That I think is for the obvious reason that it gets harder to keep one's cast "from introducing errors".
But I also think (and I am am pretty sure about that), that the line end from one point of speed level easily will travel a longer path including a worse direction in relation to air resistance when further increasing the speed level.

I do agree though, that the distance caster wants the higest line speed as long as he gets the cast nice and nearly straight unrolled.
Again, only I think this level in speed especially in windless conditions to be some before hitting max possible speed for most (if not all) of us.
We don't get our lines straight, do we?

Just yesterday I got a nice picture of me casting on my line hand side showing how "weird" the path for fly line end can easily become:

I am pretty sure that such a path does not help to hit distance at all...

All in all unless we get our lines straight unrolled and aligned with a straight tip path I doubt that max possible line speed is the one and only answer in order to drive the fluff furthest. Just not what I saw yet.

My conclusion so far is:
If the line is not straight in the moment we start the next cast, increasing speed to it's possible max will easily lengthen the path for our line end to travel to the target as well as the direction easily may become worth at some point.

Back to what Mike asked:

Anyway, I still try to understand Bernd. How slow is slow enought for perfect layout, and how fast is to fast that gives us shity layout of line/leader during delivery cast.

I think it depends on conditions: Does wind help to straighten? And if, how much? How far from straight you are? and so on...
I can't give the one and only answer.

I just don't buy in "max possible speed to always bring highest distance for the delievery of the the fluff for a given unrolled line shape behind".

Still hoping, that some of the physic experts here can offer more insight in the relation between line end path and speed for a given (typical none straight) layout at the beginning of the cast.

Regards and thanks for all the feedback,
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

Bernd,
how did you find out the birds eye view of the 2nd picture of your post #5 ? What about tracking ?
Cheers

Hi Tobias,
by filming many expert casters from many different angles of views.
Whatever tracking is for you (it's defined in different ways these days) - you'll never get it straight on long carries.
Regards
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

Dont you think Bernd it might be your own style, or something that slower works better for you, as we dont actually see the speed of the line in 3 mentioned casters?

Hi Mike,
fair question!
Thing is, I yet have to see a single distance expert getting the leader straight in windless conditions on his max speeded casts. Never happened and exactly why I came up with the distance phenomenon thread at some point in order to understand the causes.
Regards
Bernd

[Gavin Davis]

Hey guy's,
a friend pointed me towards this post. I have found this topic very interesting over the years, and discussed it a lot with my good friend Tony Loader a few years back when I was more into the distance casting stuff.
I guess there's so many variables in this game it's naive to to say there is one speed that trumps all others for distance. With saying that I do believe from my experience it's hard to stray away from the fact that at some point usually a higher line speed is the variable that helps achieve a longer distance.
The thing for me, and why I find this topic interesting is simply the bottom line of efficiency in a cast. With a 5wt TCR rod and 5wt med line my longest casts ( except in strong tail wind ) are achieved by the highest line speed, BUT they also have what feels like a very high level of physical effort and usually consistency goes down. I then cast with a slower line speed, what feels like 99% less physical effort, consistency goes up. I bet if I made 10 casts with high line speed and 10 with slower line speed, the single longest would be from the higher speed. But I bet if you averaged the distance over the 10 casts the slower line speed would probably be the same, if not very close.
So in conclusion it became obvious to me that it was much more efficient to cast a slower line speed. I might not make the single longest cast in the world, but I guarantee I would not be to far off any body's distances and I bet I'm using 1% of the physical input they are using.
The other point to make, I think learning to cast with a slower line speed teaches you a lot about how to control tension in the line. I always explain it like driving a manual car. You can use a lot of accelerator and dump the clutch, or a little accelerator and ride the clutch.

[Geenomad]

So in conclusion it became obvious to me that it was much more efficient to cast a slower line speed. I might not make the single longest cast in the world, but I guarantee I would not be to far off any body's distances and I bet I'm using 1% of the physical input they are using.
The other point to make, I think learning to cast with a slower line speed teaches you a lot about how to control tension in the line. I always explain it like driving a manual car. You can use a lot of accelerator and dump the clutch, or a little accelerator and ride the clutch.

G'day Gavin
Welcome to the Board mate. Agree with all you said. Doing more with less is imho the key to good casting and winning first prize in a 5wt distance comp is not my aspiration, nor is it necessarily a technical template for all casters to adopt - imho of course. Effort is far more often the enemy than the friend of excellent casting - whatever the casting context or distance. The reason lies in the propensity for effort to undermine velocity (see Lasse's post) by taking the rod and line away from straight lines and intended directions. Bernd nails this above. Instinct tells us harder and faster equals longer but instinct failed physics 101.

Cheers
Mark

[Michal Duzynski]

Hey Big Gav - Welcome to Sexyloops.

  I still reckon it has something to do with rushing your cast. BACK FORWARD BACK FORWARD BACK AND HIT IT.
  I think competitions can put this preasure on a caster as he/she has only 4min to perform longest cast.
  After checking, I can make 8 casts in 4 min( and Im trying to be fast)
  The initial reason of slower means better( what Bernd said) was having a straight leader layout.
   In my casting if the leader after landing has a bit wiggle in it, but the fluff is in line with fly line- that for me is straight layout- I did not kick to the right or left shortening entire cast for about 3-4 feet.
 
  Does less line speed mean for you that on the final delivery cast you got lazy slow hit??
  
 It doesnt seem to me that's correct.
  Yes you can have nice, relax fals casting with long line carry, and slowly unroling loop,but on the final delivery cast, 99% of casts Ive seen- the caster has fast final rotation with fast final haul- I think that generates higher line speed?

   Kicking leader( I would guess, mainly to the left) happens when we are so focus on a delivery cast and forgot the key points- meaning- we rushing!

  From my example:
nice,relaxed fals casting of a long line, then Im geting ready for a final cast, I relax my grip after last back cast and Im ready to hit it fast and late. Im so focused on a rod/line hand that I forgot that  the rest of my body is not ready and not in position- result- I start the fast delivery cast with my rod pointing  30° to my left.

  Im not a top distance caster- yet- ( August is not too far), but I cast a lot and those are my observation.
     Now things are much better, and since I focus on a key points like tracking and tension, there is no sidekick layout.

    FAST IS GOOD
cheers
mike