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Analysing loop propagation

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Michael Rebholz
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Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:24 am

Re: Analysing loop propagation

#131

Post by Michael Rebholz » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:10 am

@merlin above I managed fo ally to attach the source and model.

As to what setup I'm using:
I use different rods and lines but mostly a 12ft speynergy flowfeeler on a snowbee 350 gr switchline.or the 11 ft turboflex by speynergy with the same line or the 400gr, depending on where I fish.
The rods are a design of myself.
Cheers and TL

Yes I consider a cast like a big wave. A big wave coming from the rod transmitting its vibration into the line.

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Merlin
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#132

Post by Merlin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:29 am

Thanks for your answers Michael

The author speaks of the tip top guide made of a loop of twisted horse hair. If there is a chapter on a rod, there must be one on the line.
Thanks to post an abstract. What is the title of the book (I have a few)?

What you call a model is not a model, it is a concept. I wonder if someone in this forum can understand it. A model (for me) is something able to describe the behavior of a (mechanical here) system, giving estimates of line speed at launch time for example, amplitude of the counterflex and of the rod deflection. We are not living on the same modeling planet I guess.

After the big spring, let's face the big wave. Most of technicians in the forum consider that we first generate speed (momentum) in the fly leg, and then shape a loop with the tip of the rod to rollover the line and put the fly forward in the distance. The elastic wave energy in the rod is 1/5 to 1/6 the total energy put into the fly leg just before the loop is shaped, the inertial wave energy is less than that so we are looking after let's say 2/3 of the energy given to the line. For us it does not come from wave but from swing. Could you please give us the figures you would use coming along your appraoch? 100% comes from a combination of waves? All is supported by the rod before being given to the line? So all the energy of the line could be in the wave/loop/cast? That intrigates me (at least).

Finally, are your rods made from blanks or you have them built by a manufacturer? It's rather big tackle and explains the easiness of your casts.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Graeme H
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Analysing loop propagation

#133

Post by Graeme H » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:31 am

Michael Rebholz wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:02 am
Image

The superbubble looks at casts as swivel cones in 3D
And the base assumption is that the sum of all rod tip paths is a sphere ( the superbubble)
Wow.

That's your model, source and reference material?

I think you should start a new thread with that. I can't see anything about loop propagation in it.

Do you realise that at least some part of the tip path during a cast is a straight line? You have nothing but tip paths tracing un-bent rods making that bubble of hot air.

Graeme
FFi CCI

Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#134

Post by Michael Rebholz » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:36 am

@merlin
https://archive.org/details/anglerloop- ... 1/mode/2up

Is the whole book free to download
Especially also good the foreword where your man is on about bitching fly brothers exactly like we do today all the time too... :D à highly recommended read.

Not one word about casting in the whole thing. Considering the line it was made from tapered strands of horse hair that were looped into the tip loop of horsehair.
So it was horsehair to horsehair loop to Loop connue tions all the way down to the fly which was looped to looped snelled style too. And hence the name Loop rod.

Considering the superbubble which I call a Modell in a sense of thinking model. That might be called concept as well. I m OK with that.
The interesting bits are
1 It's easy to understand for everyone without being a professor in physics and it's 3D
2 it shows the loops where they are and that is: the path of the rod tip, it doesn't matter if the rods load or not. This is the correct place for the loop and this is where its own definition is consistent only.
3 therefore it is consistent.

Loops CANNOT unroll per Definition. They reoccur. And that's what's happening in the superbubble.
À loop is only fulfilled after the rod tip passes where it began

The concept of the loop in casting is illogical, let me give u a few examples:

Open loop: if it was a loop it had to be closed by definition, if it was open it couldnt be one at all
Tight loop: exactly the same thing: still not closed and even if tight, not reoccurring but unrolling.
And it doesn't matter how often you repeat it and for how long it was called that : it is wrong. Illogical. And it has no originator. I know we were told its called a loop and just consumed it without questioning it. That is what I do. And the more questions u ask about the frigging thing the less answers u get.

And I m not saying that what all the engineers and instructors are saying about what you call loops is wrong. But what I say is that thinking casts in loops is not good for casters and casting, because it distracts from what's happening and gets the wrong perception in a casters mind.
And it's not only a word. It's a dogma. And it is per definition, per historical source and per my superbubble model/concept illogical. Undeniable.
Still the loops are there, thankfully, only not where we were told they are.

4 the way I look at the swivel cones is that of course there is a straight line in a cast at some stage (or should be) but what's happening in reality is that this straight line is hardly ever kept and if it was the line would hit the tip in my understanding.
So I try of course to make the edges of my swivel cones in my casting as flat and straight as possible. Unless it's an incoming line to anchor for a speycast.

The wavespey and bonkerspey treat gravity different than other speycasts: they reposition the line (or parts of it) within the bubble (between the angler and the rod tip)
All other speycasts reposition the line outside this sphère of the sum of all possible rod tip paths.
That's why there's such an awesome degree of control to them: the closer the line to the angler the easier to control and the less influenced by the elements.

Sry I got carried away back to the loop thing:

5 and that brings us to the conclusion that if they are no loops, which they aren't because they were only called that.... What are they then? What does a rod do? It swings, it wobbles it wibbles, yes it vibrates. What else would it be doing?

Now I know that this is a great thing for flyfishing and casting. I know that because I practice casting for 20 years. I know that the air gets thinner the higher u climb.. . And I would have never believed what rodbornanchorcasting and the wavespey and thinking casting in waves and paying attention to especially not producing sound done to my casting. And I wouldn't annoy some people so hardcore if I wasn't 100% certain.

Someone was on about the simplest approach: this is it.

Cheers and TL

Michael

Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#135

Post by Michael Rebholz » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:07 am

@greame
"Much to the disgust of many of my friends here and on FB, I'm absolutely convinced that the loop itself is a traverse wave propagating through the line. My online friends have objections, to which I have answers that they don't find acceptable. Ce la vie.

Some of the things you yourself have observed can only be explained if the loop is viewed as a wave... "

One of your own quotes above in the very first answer to this very thread

Well I find it acceptable... So in a way we re in the same boat. And of course its some sort of an expression of a vibration. And the loop is somewhere else... As shown and proven above.

Cheers and TL
Michael

John Waters
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#136

Post by John Waters » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:51 am

“My guess for the future is that whoever casting God your praying to right now is gonna be outcast within the next 15 years.”

You keep avoiding my questions about the “how” Micheal. Please explain the physical change to current casting body movement that will deliver your predicted results. Predictions are easy to make, but explaining how the predicted outcome will be delivered is missing in all your prognostications. I again ask, what specific technique change will the casting God in 2035 be employing that is different from that employed by the 2020 casting God?

You have said you have answered all questions. You have not answered any I have asked in this thread.

John

Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#137

Post by Michael Rebholz » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:05 pm

@john

Torx, and the understanding of combining waves /swing patterns will make casters do that.

Repeat your questions pls I did not answer

Cheers and TL

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Merlin
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#138

Post by Merlin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:36 pm

Not even one word about casting in the whole book. Interesting, so this is the document you refer to for a definition of the line (wavy) loop, but nothing is written about the line.
Considering the superbubble which I call a Model in a sense of thinking model. That might be called concept as well. I m OK with that.
The interesting bits are: 1 It's easy to understand for everyone without being a professor in physics and it's 3D, …
Not really I’m afraid, it is rather nebulous.
Loops CANNOT unroll per Definition. They reoccur. And that's what's happening in the superbubble.
À loop is only fulfilled after the rod tip passes where it began
It depends on what they refer to. Here I understand that you speak of a loop shaped path of the rod tip. This is not the subject; it is the loop in the line unrolling to get the fly first in distance at that particular loop unrolls. We do not speak of the same loop.
As shown and proven above.
Proven? Stating something is no proof, it remains a statement. That is the general problem with your explanations (including videos) you say you prove something but it is not the case at all.
Torx, and the understanding of combining waves /swing patterns will make casters do that.
What does it mean? Make a cast and everything will be OK?

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Paul Arden
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#139

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Hi Michael,

Yes I’ve tried Torque Twist. No it doesn’t give me more distance for 5WT distance. What we refer to as “Stopless” still gives me the longest casts.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Dirk le Roux
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#140

Post by Dirk le Roux » Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:17 pm

Michael Rebholz wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:02 am
The superbubble looks at casts as swivel cones in 3D
And the base assumption is that the sum of all rod tip paths is a sphere ( the superbubble)
I enjoyed that again thanks, Michael!

Your 3d conceptual is a bit lacking in detail, mainly because it lacks translation, I think. A more realistic D-stickman with translation abilities will make it a super-ellipsoid.

Cheers,
Dirk

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