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Analysing loop propagation

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#161

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:18 pm

20201005_211409.jpg
From Doug Swisher and Carl Richards , flyfishing strategy, 1. Edition 1975.
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

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Graeme H
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#162

Post by Graeme H » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:57 pm

Bianchetti Ivan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:58 pm
.. it cannot be a wave, because either it is always or never,
It always is.
FFi CCI

Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#163

Post by Michael Rebholz » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:01 am

How can it be a loop if ir is a wave?
Since when are waves loops?
How can a loop ever even be open?

That source from 1975 is irrelevant for what we are doing here, lasso. It only repeats. Like us today. This is deffo not the source who mentions the loop for the first time in flycasting.

This must be somewhere between 1885 and 1937

Who can proof that it is a loop?

And because it is so mega difficult to find out something about the origin of this faulty concept, I asked myself the following question:

Who can profit from the (tight) loop?
The tackle industry - so at this stage my educated guess is that along with taper design (Seen in source from merlin A B and C actions on the rods )
So it could be said something like " the À action rod throws the" tightest loop"... U should buy one. Lol u know the craic... Not a lot has changed since then if so.

I think this is how the dogma evolved, can't proof it yet. Fact is that it held up very well for quiet a while.... Untill the wavespey made the waves clearly visible for the first time...and if I would have listened to some people we d still believe in it. Believing is not knowing. Knowing its a wave renders the loop ad acta.

The real funny thing with all this is the fact that u can't find anything about it and that it has never been questioned.... Its called loop. The earth is flat... If u paddle out too far, you fall off the edge. Lol

Cheers and TL

Michael

Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#164

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:21 am

Graeme H wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:57 pm
Bianchetti Ivan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:58 pm
.. it cannot be a wave, because either it is always or never,
It always is.
Let's assume that the line attached to the rod is the ground, that the wave is the c that forms and the line above is the back of the wave, raising the line below, the wave should increase in height, because it has the opposite behavior ? or is it just my impression of ignorance on the subject?
Thanks for your patience.

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Merlin
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#165

Post by Merlin » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:21 am

Wavespey.JPG
Wavespey.JPG (44.68 KiB) Viewed 355 times
To me the “wavespey” cast is a repositioning of the line with the help of a rollcast instead of a sweep of the rod. The "loop" travels down to the point where its sunk part (line or leader, shown by the blue arrow) and reflects to the other side which completes the repositioning. Smart cast indeed. That remembers me a friend of mine who was able to lift his (floating) line from water with a tiny circle loop he flipped from the tip of his HMG rod, just amazing.

I wonder if the “sound” story is related to the noise made by the line on the water.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Merlin
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#166

Post by Merlin » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:17 pm

Facts for you Michael

The first single hand fly rods similar to what we know today appeared somewhere around 1870. They were longer (10 feet or more) than today. It is likely that the word "loop" as mentionned by Powell appeared during that period of time, as these rods commercially developped (end of 19th century) but do not expect a book to prove that, one of the very first one related to "modern" fly fishing was written in 1899 and does not devote a single word to casting.
Who can profit from the (tight) loop?
I think that you focus on two hand rods, whilst most people on the forum focus on single hand rods (like Powell). With a SH rod a tight loop allows casting further since it minimizes losses due to air drag. With a 2H rod you can hardly appreciate the effect of loop size given the speed you can develop with the long level arm and rather heavy lines. You do not even need to false cast. Flip the rod and bingo, the line flies forward with speed. If you have a chance try to cast a 6 foot rod for a line #3, I think you will get the difference in between SH rods world and 2H rods world. Test wide and narrow loops and you will get the importance of its size.

And you have to accept that in fly fishing world, the word "loop" designate that U thing linking two legs of line, although it is not a closed loop as understood in a general meaning. And on top of that with use closed loops to tie our leaders with knots, and that does not have any importance for understanding fly casting and line rollover.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#167

Post by Michael Rebholz » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:39 pm

@merlin

It works with any rod and line and its easier with longer rods and heavier lines.

What I meant by watching it was to go out by yourself and establish the wave patterns for yourself.

Only because its called a loop doesn't mean it makes sense. The world was supposed to be flat only a couple hundred years back and people thought that makes perfect sense... . Is it flat?

The sound/cast relation in regards to types of vibration is hugely underrated in teaching and learning flycasting. Flyfishing is learning. Plus it speaks a very strong consistent language. Especially in conjunction with torx. The torsional element in the wave complex makes perfect sense, too.

Loops don't make sense from open to tight, and the restrict thinking and casting abilities. Nobody knows where they come from, nobody knows what they re good for?

I know for sure that I set myself and my own casting under tremendous pressure for years because of this "Dogma of the tight loop" and that it only started to get way better after I let go of this and relaxed and payed attention to way more important things like sound for example.

And I still believe very strongly that there must be a book and or magasin article mentioning this loop for the first time. Otherwise such a strong myth would have not spread 150 years ago. I m told it in essays from é.c. Powell 1919 (3 essays on flyfishing) book is not available anywhere.

Cheers and TL
Michael

Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#168

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:58 pm

Michael Rebholz wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:39 pm
@merlin

It works with any rod and line and its easier with longer rods and heavier lines.

What I meant by watching it was to go out by yourself and establish the wave patterns for yourself.

Only because its called a loop doesn't mean it makes sense. The world was supposed to be flat only a couple hundred years back and people thought that makes perfect sense... . Is it flat?

The sound/cast relation in regards to types of vibration is hugely underrated in teaching and learning flycasting. Flyfishing is learning. Plus it speaks a very strong consistent language. Especially in conjunction with torx. The torsional element in the wave complex makes perfect sense, too.

Loops don't make sense from open to tight, and the restrict thinking and casting abilities. Nobody knows where they come from, nobody knows what they re good for?

I know for sure that I set myself and my own casting under tremendous pressure for years because of this "Dogma of the tight loop" and that it only started to get way better after I let go of this and relaxed and payed attention to way more important things like sound for example.

And I still believe very strongly that there must be a book and or magasin article mentioning this loop for the first time. Otherwise such a strong myth would have not spread 150 years ago. I m told it in essays from é.c. Powell 1919 (3 essays on flyfishing) book is not available anywhere.

Cheers and TL
Michael
You are right, they explained to me that the earth is not flat and I understood, for this reason, before being told that it is square, I would like some proofs and not words again.

Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#169

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:27 pm

I searched for the word loop in the Italian vocabulary, I was amazed at how many practices this name is applied to, even in skating, in electronics, in the mental state, but it almost always refers to something that rolls.

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Paul Arden
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#170

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:46 pm

Hi guys,

While thinking about “Waves” or “wave packet” helps some improve their cast this doesn’t mean that they are waves in the physical sense. As James neatly pointed out in his FP “the Big Spring” loading/unloading has helped many people too. Indeed thinking about loading/unloading can be quite useful and back when I wrote the original Flycasting Manual I wrote -
Fly casting works because we use the weight of the flyline to bend the rod, we then force the rod to unbend which casts the line for us. We bend the rod by moving it against the flyline's mass. We unbend it by stopping. The most important part to learn in fly casting is an effective stop.

OK now I've told you this, let me also tell you that it isn't true. What this is, however, is a nice way to visualise flycasting. It gives you 'feel'.
https://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/tbasic1.shtml

Now this was written back in Spring ‘99 and 21 years is a long time, particularly since we have the Board since then, which first appeared about 9 months later. And believe me I’ve learned 100 times more about Flycasting from the Board than I ever knew back then!

The interesting thing is, when teaching, different things work for different people. The Big Spring can work, waves can work, sound can work, casting blindfolded and so on and on.

However physics is physics and I’m not going to try to teach someone like James physics, just like James wouldn’t try to teach me Snakehead fishing. :D

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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