Question about tails

[Paul Arden]

I absolutely agree with you on the wrist Gary. That’s what it’s all about. And for me it verges on, or even actively encourages, pull-back.

Any advantages of the S-tip path? I’ve no idea. Bernd started from that position and I’ve only just agreed with him. I will now need about six months to draw a conclusion on its value However it was unexpected for me and so an interesting starting point from which to build a new casting stroke.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Where we disagree is in what constitutes a tailing loop. For you it’s a dip in the rod plane, for me it’s a dip in the loop plane.

Hi Paul ,
Interesting. When the accelerational rod plane and the loop plane are different, what causes such a dip in loop plane then?
Can't be the typical too sudden burst of force application killing the smooth increase in rod bend anymore though, right? Because that one would cause a dip in rod plane...

Do we agree, that all waves in the fly-leg are bad, if not done on purpose?
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bernd,

No it’s not acceleration, it’s the tip path that you draw that causes the dip. Ie S shape vs U or J.

Try inverting the S shape tip path with a vertical loop thrown *above* the rod tip cast in the horizontal plane. In other words what you are drawing below the rod tip for the pendulum cast but mirrored and thrown above. I’m indoors here but that tails for me.

Back on the boat later.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Hi Paul ,
Interesting. When the accelerational rod plane and the loop plane are different, what causes such a dip in loop plane then?
Can't be the typical too sudden burst of force application killing the smooth increase in rod bend anymore though, right? Because that one would cause a dip in rod plane...

... and doesn't that dip in the rod plane create a curious curve cast like the Svirgolato (or however is it spelled)???

And, to create a tail in a vertical loop, above the rod tip, from a horizontal rod plane, is actually very difficult for me, probably since I make it with my wrist rotating down. Now, with the underslung loop I can, in fact I have to consciously attempt not to create a tail... rotating the wrist up is much stronger for me.

[Paul Arden]

Indoors with a short line I didn’t find it very difficult. I need to try this on the boat roof tomorrow with the lumiline to get a fuller picture. It’s not something I’ve actually tried until today

Cheers, Paul

[Graeme H]

Hi Paul ,
Interesting. When the accelerational rod plane and the loop plane are different, what causes such a dip in loop plane then?
Can't be the typical too sudden burst of force application killing the smooth increase in rod bend anymore though, right? Because that one would cause a dip in rod plane...

... and doesn't that dip in the rod plane create a curious curve cast like the Svirgolato (or however is it spelled)???

Yes, that's how the Svirgoleto achieves the curve. It's probably wrong to call it a dip though because we always associate the word "dip" with a downwards movement in the vertical sense. The chord length does shorten in an otherwise inappropriate manner (a horizontal tail) and when combined with a vertical loop orientation, produces a curve cast as the leader lays down after crossing over the rod leg.

I think part of the controversy we're discussing in this thread is derived from the word "dip". I don't know the solution, but we're going to chase our tails until that's cleared up.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Paul Arden]

Having shared some messages with Bernd the terms “tracking” and “tailing loops” have different meanings for us. For me tailing loops are tails in the loop plane. For Bernd he is in the rod plane. Tracking for me is the rod tip path perpendicular to rod plane. I think Bernd is simply a straight rod plane and I know for others it might even be the bird’s eye view of the tip path!

As I wrote to Bernd with a loop in parallel with the rod plane, the fly leg shape is controlled by casting arc (and other factors too of course) and the loops being in parallel is controlled by tracking. Whereas with the loop at 90 degrees to the rod plane, using my use of the above terms, tracking controls the fly leg shape and casting arc adjustments control the loop’s legs being in parallel.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Having shared some messages with Bernd the terms “tracking” and “tailing loops” have different meanings for us. For me tailing loops are tails in the loop plane. For Bernd he is in the rod plane. Tracking for me is the rod tip path perpendicular to rod plane. I think Bernd is simply a straight rod plane and I know for others it might even be the bird’s eye view of the tip path!

Mate,
so when the caster is overhead casting in the vertical plane, you would watch the tip from the side view (perpendicular = 90 degrees) and call that tracking?

In the old times of the board tracking always was tip path (RSP0 to RSP1) seen from above (bird's view). So it was about keeping the tip within the vertical plane. For that you would watch down (along) that plane.

Problem I had with that, was that it was great when the cast was done by rod movement in the vert. plane. But when side casting one was clearly controlling a different thing! In side casting the tip would always have much worse tracking. Didn't make sende to me.

So I changed and called tracking to be rod movement within one and one only plane. For that I would look down that plane.
I remember about ten years back you did agree on that to make sense. I could find that for you.

To understand tails to be waves in loop plane doesn't make sense to me. Tails were always about having lost control about a smooth increase in rod bend. That of course hapoens within rod plane.

Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

... and doesn't that dip in the rod plane create a curious curve cast like the Svirgolato (or however is it spelled)???

Svirgolato to me is a controlled tailing loop (almost) positioned in the horizontal plane. Took me a while to be able to hit the target with that cast, while having a 90 degree angle (almost) straight fly line to (almost) straight leader. One of the most difficult casts I learnt.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bernd,

We are actually on the same page with tracking. Stick a marker pen on the tip and a canvas perpendicular to rod plane and there is your/my tracking. That’s where the S, J and figure of 8 shapes come from.

Cheers, Paul