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Fly rod guide selection

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Torsten
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#11

Post by Torsten »

Gordy,
For sure that is the bottom line and indicates that line slap may not be as detrimental to impacting casting distance as I would have thought.
Fuji compares there only conventional guide sets. I'd say we don't know exactly the differences, for that we would need to measure the actual line friction. The casting sport guide sets have usually a larger diameter and height (I don't think a 50mm guide makes much sense for practical fishing though).

Lefty Kreh recommend a larger stripping guide to reduce line slapping. I could imagine that a small action cam mounted to the fly rod would work to record high speed footage of different stripping guide sizes. Maybe someone here has the time to conduct such an experiment.

George, thanks sounds quite interesting I'm guessing that's for an trout accuracy rod. I've used Torzites, but not yet such a small size.

Torsten.
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Paul Arden
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#12

Post by Paul Arden »

We’ve experimented with Torzites of course. We fit them as standard on HT10 and offer them as options on 7 and 8 rods. On 6 and below I feel (and others agree) that the change in action is so great that the advantages of a smoother shoot are out-weighed by a slower rod. There are lighter rings out there - recoils for example. I even notice the difference in action between recoils and H&H Single Legs on a light line rod.

I can’t see any advantage in fitting Torzites to an accuracy rod?

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#13

Post by Torsten »

I see an advantage for ceramic guides, if you're casting a lot on grass or from the bank - because then the fly line gets pretty abrasive and would wear snakes quickly. Most (ICSF) casting sport rods for fly distance/accuracy that I've seen have ceramic guides. I'm wondering how quickly Recoils wear? As far as I know the NiTi alloy has only a low surface hardness. Has anyone experience with that?

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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#14

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Torsten,

I haven’t worn any Recoils out but I have snapped a few. I have heard about the grass wearing out Recoils and so we fit H&H single legs on the Instructor Rods (or at least offer this). I ran a few tests on distance and found that they also cast further. Whether this is the Recoil rings being so thin or if it’s that they vibrate I can’t say.

I can see the difference in how the blank responds between these two rings by watching the bottom leg of the loop, particularly under lights. It has a small difference in feel too of course and when you get down to 3 and 4WTs I think that difference is significant in terms of the rod’s action and feel.

Same with Snakes too of course. However putting Torzites on a light line rod definitely makes it feel slower. Interestingly of course Chris Korich and many of the US team prefer softer rods. I can’t remember if it’s Chris or Glen using an old Fenwick which would be considered very soft by today’s standards.

So it’s very possible that the increased ring weight is actually a primary reason for them.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#15

Post by George C »

Collector guide over-run gets much more dramatic than this but the picture gives you an idea as to how it can be significant.
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#16

Post by George C »

A couple of other thoughts.

Line slap, if defined as line-blank contact, is more dependent on effective guide height (distance from blank to the bottom of the guide ring) than ring size. Indeed, many large ring guides are lower than the newer design small ring high frame options. More pertinent, perhaps, to fly casting is that line slap also is dependent on distance between guides........and is one reason some people advocate for using extra running guides when single foot guides are used. How important line slap is is debatable. Rods with snake guides and un-sanded blanks cast well. But as lines become softer, dirty, and dry we all lose distance. How much comes from guide ring friction and how much from blank friction I have no idea.

Line/guide over-run, as shown above, seems likely to be important although how best to deal with it in a fly casting situation is unsettled. Larger guides diminish it some, but also pass it on to the next guide so the net effect is hard to guess. For thin braid with high velocities the current thinking is to get it over with at the first guide and keep it minimized the rest of the way out the rod......although this is as much to avoid looping and breakoffs as it is to improve distance. To accomplish this, small high rings with loop shedding design are useful. How much this translates to fly casting is, however, unclear.
Something to think about.
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#17

Post by Torsten »

Hi Paul,
Paul Arden wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:06 am Same with Snakes too of course. However putting Torzites on a light line rod definitely makes it feel slower. Interestingly of course Chris Korich and many of the US team prefer softer rods. I can’t remember if it’s Chris or Glen using an old Fenwick which would be considered very soft by today’s standards.

So it’s very possible that the increased ring weight is actually a primary reason for them.
I've looked up the guide weight of a #4 Torzite: 0.04g - the smallest PacBay stainless steel snake #1 weighs ~0.1g - thus this reason would be less likely. I think Daniel could simulate the influence of different guide weights.

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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#18

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Torsten,

Snakes are an interesting one. I’ve been wanting to CCS the difference between Snakes and Recoils (although Torzites would be very interesting too). I’m kicking myself because we actually had the opportunity when Ronan changed his guides from Recoils to Snakes. I would not be surprised if Snakes result in a stiffer rod.

Proper testing really means having the same blank made up twice (or three times). Comparing rods of the same model with different ring selections does obviously reveal trends but no two blanks are identical and that possible variation needs to be eliminated for an accurate test.

I’m sure it will happen again and when it does we will be sure to measure it.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#19

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi Paul

You won't really get a difference in the ern and aa with different rings 🙂

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Paul Arden
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#20

Post by Paul Arden »

I don’t know. Obviously ring mass will affect the frequency. But the thought I had was that the two anchor points with a Snake ring in between should result in a stiffer rod. There is more weight there - the rod should feel softer not stiffer.

When I stripped Snakes off an XP5 and fitted SICs I would say the result was a rod that felt one line weight softer. Lars has a HT6 with Snakes. He thinks that is about 1/2 line weight stiffer than the one with Recoils.

So I think this must be the case, particularly when you think about the tip. Hopefully the next time the opportunity comes up to test it I’ll actually remember to do this :)

Cheers, Paul
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