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SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:48 pm
by Dirk le Roux
Hi everyone, Dirk here and new on the board. Sorry for the long post to start with but i hope its worth it.

I was inspired pursue fly casting more on its own (nearest decent fishing is 2+ hours away) after a demo with Peter Hayes on his visit to South Africa a few months ago. Turning into a geek...

Watching video on distance casters I’ve been intrigued that often a seemingly small down-up flick of the wrist could be seen right around final rotation on the forward cast. Sometimes more like just an “up”. Thing is it’s hard to get a handle on what’s happening just by watching, even in slow motion. Trying to analyse that I started tracing the arm configuration and spline path of the wrist, and while I was at it also the elbow and shoulder paths, at various intervals of various casts on CAD.

Here is what I have so far. Where possible due to cameras having been on tripods, or other reasons, I was able to make plots of both false casting and delivery casts. I hope you also find this interesting and hope the guys analysed won’t mind being featured.

A bit of explanation first
• The red and blue hopperleg graphs are back and forward positions respectively
• The spline paths are generally: lower one the elbow, middle one shoulder and top one the wrist trace, except in Paul’s case.. ;)
• You can see wich part of the spline paths are back or forward by checking which of the blue or red hopperlegs they correlate with
• I included wrist angles also (show rotation timing)
• All the figures containing interrupted line hopperlegs have been taken at exactly regular intervals, with the interrupted positions in between the regular solid line ones. From this some idea of speed at certain stages can be gleaned


Bart de Zwaan – false casting. Small arc and nice smooth figure of eight path. I like this guy’s style! Interesting too that the forward wrist path runs higher than the backcast part, as opposed to basically everyone else!


Bart – delivery. Heavy upward trajectory on the thrust and pronounced jump in shoulder path when he shifts to the front foot. His delivery arc measured 120°

Image
Lasse Karlsson – false casting


Lasse – delivery. High speed between forward hopperleg four and six!


Magnus Uhr – pronounced dip on wrist rotation and then an upward stab


Magnus – delivery. Very late rotation!


Paul Arden – all sorts of things happening, but…


… check out the elegant wrist path on its own


Ronny Landin – false casting. Speed between fw 2 and 4. Paths more aligned than others and with subtle deviations as highlighted here:



Ronny’s delivery stroke


I also traced the rod tip and think the down-up at the end of wrist rotation (circled) is largely responsible for a sustained SLP. P.S. check the loop size!


Steve Rajeff – false casting. From an old file and interesting compared to the others


Steve’s shoot. Down-up circled. Also similar shoulder bounce as with Bart

Technical comments on the down-up hop, and maybe in general?

All the best,
Dirk

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:33 pm
by Lasse Karlsson
Hi Dirk

Welcome to SL :)

And thanks for sharing!

Cheers
Lasse

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:22 pm
by Marc Fauvet
excellent stuff Dirk, thanks ! :pirate:

here's a somewhat similar hand-path study Alejandro Viñuales shared with us a while back.
https://vimeo.com/34069874

cheers,
marc

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:42 am
by John Waters
Like the rotation of the shoulder and the parallel elbow path in Steve's cast of either a 38 gram or 19 gram head, that's the important part of the stroke, not the wrist. I am positive both movements would be replicated when he casts the lighter gear e.g. 5 weight.
Great overlays, thanks for posting.

John

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:07 am
by Dirk le Roux
Hi Marc

Another interesting clip i found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqTisRx_9eI .. from around 3:15.

Greg Jackson reckons the "rocking pointing" action helps dictate loop size. Agree. i also think it adds a small tight smooth application of force right at the tip bend part of unflexing to RSP.

I traced Alejandro's tip path and the results show no dip or for that matter an undue rise in tip path during the up movement at the butt.


Funny thing that conventional teaching would discourage that sort of dip - tailing loops - which obviously does not hold true. i used to think it gives room for rotation so as to avoid an overly circly arc of the rod tip during that phase, but the traces show it mostly is applied at the end of and after wrist rotation.

All the best,
Dirk

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:09 am
by Dirk le Roux
BTW i envy Alejandro for that setting!!

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:16 am
by Dirk le Roux
John Waters wrote:that's the important part of the stroke, not the wrist. I am positive both movements would be replicated when he casts the lighter gear e.g. 5 weight.
John


Hi John.

I agree there's something important in the shoulder path, most exagerated in Steve's and Bart's delivery moves, but don't have a grasp on that yet. can you explain the dynamics behind your emphasis? It relates to weight shift to the front foot but there's more?...

All the best,
Dirk

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:29 am
by John Waters
Much more Dirk, in my opinion. Of the pivots in the vertical plane, shoulder is primary, elbow is secondary and wrist is tertiary. That segmentation and the relative level of importance is based upon the muscle groups involved. Ditto speed generated. In the horizontal plane, hip and torso rotation are the key to speed. Your overlays show the speed generated by Steve's stroke.

I am sure Haysie talked about tip speed and the relativity to distance achieved. The key is how much you generate and how it impacts the loop. Look to the body to generate speed, not the rod.

John

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:34 am
by Marc Fauvet
Dirk le Roux wrote:BTW i envy Alejandro for that setting!!

for sure ! although the decor isn't as interesting maybe you'd like to graph these two top hitters from Sweden as well: (if the photo angle makes it possible)(don't know)
http://thelimpcobra.com/2012/12/17/dist ... nt-styles/

cheers,
marc

SLP AND SHOULDER , ELBOW, WRIST PATHS

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:22 pm
by VGB
Welcome Dirk.

My view as a chump caster is that the "down" part increases the rotational torque applied while minimising tip path diversion and then the "up" reduces counterflex.

regards

Vince