Leader profile alteration for increased fly mass?

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Folks...

I am frequently surprised by the lack of interest among the rather competent fly anglers (that I personally know) on how they create their tapered leaders. Most that I know have rather simplistic formulas that they never change, no matter what.

I fish in South Florida where we have a large diversity of species to target. Most fishing is done with 8 to 12 wt. lines, and the leaders vary greatly in tippet strength and length. The flies too vary greatly in size, mass, and wind resistance.

The leader profiles that I see range from simple one or two piece “tapers” to multi-piece ones, but the latter quite often have simple arithmetic profiles - like each section is 50% of the previous. Not surprisingly, even though some of these guys are rather competent fish catchers or thoroughly well traveled world anglers, they often have presentations that leave a lot to be desired. Rods and fly lines are ardently investigated and argued, but few consider leader profiles.

Note that these guys are all saltwater anglers and the concept of a Harvey styled leader to gently present a dry fly on a slack leader is completely outside their scope of knowledge, and would probably be discounted as unnecessarily complex by them anyway.

Personally I know that the leader I make for playing at distance casting with a fluff of yarn is not the same as I need to present a real fly with hook mass included. I wish I could say I have come to some conclusive formulae, but the truth is I cannot so rely on experimentation. I simply start with the rod / line /leader / fly that I expect to use, and then alter my leader profile until I get the presentation I want.

I’ve yet to find much information on constructing leaders, outside of trout fishing, so I base my starting point on simple concepts like Bruce Richards’ explanation of concave/convex front tapers on flylines and a 60:20:20 proportioned first draft leader.

Lately I have come into a situation that has me scratching my head, once again. Each year around this time my fishing involves presenting foam poppers and divers at shoreline structure. The flies, relatively, have quite a bit of mass even though they float but very little wind resistance. They are essentially a tapered foam cylinder, a central 1/0 or 2/0 SS hook, and a short synthetic tail. They can be carried the necessary distance with 8 or 9 wt lines, but accuracy is quite important. Since these flies, unlike say a pike fly, have very little wind resistance and almost no “fluff” to add air drag, they fly like little darts and take on quite a bit of their own trajectory.

A real challenge is casting a curved line without the fly causing an extreme kick at the end of the leader turn over.

So… does anyone have a suggestion on how to proportion the leader for such a fly, or know of any source of information of a similar topic?

Thanks!

[Paul Arden]

This is a good topic. Do you have a pic of the fly, Mangrove? I've been using a lot of poppers the past 11 months - my leader is very stout. (40lbs!)

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

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[WJC]

....and would probably be discounted as unnecessarily complex by them anyway.

Hi Mango,

I resemble that remark.

The way I see it, crease flys and those poppers you pictured are more like lures than flies, and Paul is right on as far as how to deal with them. With flies like that, in order to do as you say, stiff leader and tippet is the way to go.

The leader is not turning over the "fly", the "fly" simply drags the tippet behind it unless it is very stiff. You could always try some Mason Hard. It's still availabe and is very stiff.

As for knotted tapered leaders, I got away from them a long time ago for bonefish where I used to wade for them because dead bay grass was always on top. Blood knots, bless their hearts, pick up dead bay grass. So I wound up using tapered permit leaders and tying on a six foot section of tippet (with a blood knot) faired in with pliobond, later clear UV reactive stuff covered with hard as nails.

I've never liked those foam crease flys or foam poppers with the exception of Cam Sigler foam popper heads used backwards for easier casting and a profile much more like ballyhoo than if used traditionally. They will still make a good enough commotion on top for sailfish to see them easily in a chop. All the larger shark species down here will also eat them. I like spun deer fur for the salt and both it and cork for largemouth bass.

What are you fishing for that you need to make curves and slack line casts for with them?

Cheers,
Jim

[Graeme H]

I tend to use twisted FC leaders or a strange concoction of my own design involving spliced hollow spectra and varnish in boiled linseed oil. Both leader designs are very effective, but the latter is a pain in the backside to make due to the intense complexity of their construction. (Each one takes 30 minutes to make plus a three to four weeks of drying time.)

Would they help "turn over" those flies? I doubt it. Those flies will just go wherever they were aimed during the cast.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Thanks for the input guys...

I guess I will try some hard Mason and see what happens. I was resisting the common knowledge since using heavier mono was adding more kick rather than reducing it. Heavier in this case was heavier, not necessarily stiffer.

Where I'm at right now is using a thick butt and taper section, rather short, but adding quite a long tippet (20#)... and a bite tippet. I'm fishing for snook and small tarpon shoreline casting in mangrove creeks and back bays.

I agree that these flies are much like darts that take on their own trajectory eventually. I'm just trying to maintain control of them with the line and leader for as long as possible... hence the heavy but short front end of the leader. Once the turnover gets to the tippet section I have no more control of the outcome. But I've found that by lengthening the tippet enough I can get the the inertia in the fly to degrade substantially.

I don't really need to use curve casts most of the time, but I add that to the mix for more challenge in the casting. It does add a few fish each trip by putting the fly around stuff on the shore.

Jim... I hear ya about the blood knots and weeds! I don't have that problem in the back, but out front the weeds can be a nightmare. I haven't thought of coating knots since my last tube of Pliobond dried out back in the 80s! But using that UV stuff on the knots for out front is a great idea!

Graeme... I found furled leaders to not work at all... they seemed too supple for me. And I'll pass on the boiling in linseed oil idea too. I do soak my mono in a pot of heavily reduced tea to stain them with tannin though... we'll see if Mason will take on a tint.

Thanks again guys!

[Graeme H]

Graeme... I found furled leaders to not work at all... they seemed too supple for me. And I'll pass on the boiling in linseed oil idea too. I do soak my mono in a pot of heavily reduced tea to stain them with tannin though... we'll see if Mason will take on a tint.

Thanks again guys!

Twisted leaders, not furled. The results are very different. Twisted leaders are far stiffer than furled, but more supple than mono or FC line of the same diameter. See my YouTube video on making them here.

And I do not boil my leaders in linseed oil. I dissolve varnish in "boiled linseed oil" (a solvent when used this way) and dip my tapered hollow spectra leaders in it. The solution forms a polymer as it dries. It's what silk fly lines are treated with to make them heavier, stiffer and abrasion resistant. I'm essentially making a tapered artificial silk leader with a minimum breaking strain of 60lb.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Viking Lars]

Graeme - that varnished twisted leader sounds very interesting. I've useed twisted and furlerd leaders in the past, but not for many years, since I find they pick and spray too much, at least for trout and grayling. I'll check your video :-).

Mangrove - as I read your post, it's not turnover as such you have a problem with - rather a too hard turnover, right? You wish to slow Down your turnover to prevent kick, to make curves and also to make general presentation better? Your butt section is almost a given parameter as you can't make it much thinner than the tip of the line you're using (2/3 at least). But you can shorten it and make a longer taper and, as you're also hinting at, a longer tip section. Both should help in reducing kick. Also - you could take a look at the line you're using, and maybe try tp find one that has a longer front taper and maybe even a thinner tip. Front taper is one parameter in presentation, but tip diameter of the fly line itself is also very important.

But my first course of action would be to try a shorter butt section, longer taper and longer tip.

Lars

[Graeme H]

Graeme - that varnished twisted leader sounds very interesting. I've useed twisted and furlerd leaders in the past, but not for many years, since I find they pick and spray too much, at least for trout and grayling. I'll check your video :-).

I seem to be digging a deeper hole for myself.

I use two different styles of leaders, most of the time.

• One is a twisted leader made from monofilament leader material such as nylon or fluorocarbon (yes, FC is a type of monofilament!). It is never varnished
• The other type is a tapered (stepped) hollow spectra leader that is impregnated with varnish/linseed oil, or sometimes with thinned Liquid Fusion.

The first is easy to make, hard wearing and easy to control. It's fairly clear in the water and much more supple than other clear leaders.

The second is a pain in the arse to make but has strength beyond any other tapered leader I've seen. I use green Jerry Brown Hollow Spectra in various strengths, spliced to form a tapered leader that looks like sea weed. It has loops on each end for connecting to the fly line and the tippet. Paul likes them for his snakehead fishing because they are never going to be the weak link in his fight with the beasts. I like them for SW fishing for the same reason. The second one can also be made to float by adding muslin or the like, but it does tend to flick water if I do that (not a problem most of the time for me). I often use tippets up to 6' with this leader.

Sometimes I'll make other types of leaders on the spot as needed, but the two types mentioned above get used in most of my fishing.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Lars

Thanks... that is a different spin on where I've been heading so I'll give it a try.

Me: Shorter butt, shorter taper, longer tippet
You: Shorter butt, longer taper, longer tippet

Your way I can still kill the inertia of the fly, but maybe have a bit more control. And, I'm with you on the front taper and tip diameter of the fly line. My butt is right at 66% of fly line tip diameter.

Graeme

Wow... and I thought I was getting a bit too involved with leaders. That is some very cool stuff! I tried some twisting myself, similar but kept some double twist in front of the 4 strand to make a two section stepped butt. It works great down here when fishing in freshwater where there are water lillies... the leader will saw right through their stalks if a fish wraps you up... and of course, they turn over a regular fly very well.

And thanks for the varnish / linseed oil info. I'm sure that has quite a bit of history behind it. I don't think I have an application, but as a chemist I am quite curious about what is going on!