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Welded Loops with Bernd
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- Paul Arden
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Welded Loops with Bernd
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Awesome looking loop mate.
For trouting I cut the damn things off because not only can the loop get stuck in the rings but so does the perfection loop in the Leader. Instead I use a 2,5 turn needle knot. With this knot I can flick the Leader out and with 20ft plus leaders which is standard for my Stillwater trouting I need a knot that is smooth in the rings for fishing, getting going and playing fish. However....
For jungle fishing I do what you do. Even 5-turn nail knots slip with a Snakehead pull. What I have found interesting however is the strength of some factory welded Loops. I asked Bruce how strong they were and he told me he had hung 25lb weights off them. Despite this he reinforces them for SW fishing with two nail knots of 10lb mono.
I dont even bother to do this until they start to unweld in which case I strip to the core and - actually I don't splice, but instead whip three times to form the loop in the braid.
I will start splicing this season however - I've been inspired thanks to you and Graeme!
Thanks,
Paul
Awesome looking loop mate.
For trouting I cut the damn things off because not only can the loop get stuck in the rings but so does the perfection loop in the Leader. Instead I use a 2,5 turn needle knot. With this knot I can flick the Leader out and with 20ft plus leaders which is standard for my Stillwater trouting I need a knot that is smooth in the rings for fishing, getting going and playing fish. However....
For jungle fishing I do what you do. Even 5-turn nail knots slip with a Snakehead pull. What I have found interesting however is the strength of some factory welded Loops. I asked Bruce how strong they were and he told me he had hung 25lb weights off them. Despite this he reinforces them for SW fishing with two nail knots of 10lb mono.
I dont even bother to do this until they start to unweld in which case I strip to the core and - actually I don't splice, but instead whip three times to form the loop in the braid.
I will start splicing this season however - I've been inspired thanks to you and Graeme!
Thanks,
Paul
- Lasse Karlsson
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
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Welded Loops with Bernd
If you want to make it really sexy, make sure you splice it in and under the coating, the further the better, then out through the coating. When thats done, melt the coating around the exit point with shrinktube.
Fast, sexy, and no glue or sewing required. And the loop is the best I've found so far.
Cheers
Lasse
Fast, sexy, and no glue or sewing required. And the loop is the best I've found so far.
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
-
- Posts: 1478
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:14 pm
- Location: Brisbane-Australia
- Contact:
Welded Loops with Bernd
Hi
There is a discussion on an Aussie forum about the factory loops vs made braided loops, or other DIY loops. Discussiin concern saltwater fly lines with mono core and fishing for big strong GT.
Opinions are different and some say that factory loops are strong enough.
What your thoughts?
p.s1
Paul in Malaysia- do you use tropical lines with mono core, if yes what your conection to the hard pulling Snakehead?
p.s2
I really need to learn doing them( never needed). Lasse do you have a link to your recipe?
cheers
mike
There is a discussion on an Aussie forum about the factory loops vs made braided loops, or other DIY loops. Discussiin concern saltwater fly lines with mono core and fishing for big strong GT.
Opinions are different and some say that factory loops are strong enough.
What your thoughts?
p.s1
Paul in Malaysia- do you use tropical lines with mono core, if yes what your conection to the hard pulling Snakehead?
p.s2
I really need to learn doing them( never needed). Lasse do you have a link to your recipe?
cheers
mike
Welded Loops with Bernd
Hi Mike
Like many things in fly fishing opinions and mileage vary. I'm not keen on welded loops for FW fishing as, like Paul, I find them too bulky to glide in and out when using long leaders. When walking and stalking you don't want the loop too far outside the tip because the loose leader is bound to tangle in the shrubbery. (FWIW my set up allows the point fly to be hooked in a guide of the top section of the rod and then the leader is taken back down and around the reel handle.) Second requirement is that the transition between loop and fly line is eased to reduce cracking of the line coating at the transition point.
To suit these requirements I use either a Roman Moser minicon with the sleeve secured with a tiny tiny drop of Loctite 406. This stuff is thin enough to seep in and glue the base of the loop to the line and sleeve to the loop. The sleeve goes back over the line for 10-15mm beyond the loop base. This bit is not secured and it's sole purpose is to ease the transition.
For SW fishing with shorter leaders and bigger tip tops I am less concerned with factory loops although I still lean towards DIY braided loops. My latest version of these is a bit fiddly but very tidy.
A section of braided leader butt is secured to the end of the flyline with a nail knot of thin braid or mono or served with strong tying thread. Using a latch needle the rest of the braid is turned inside out and back over the initial section which is now the inner part of the loop. The outer covers the fixing point of what is now the inner and is secured a couple of centimetres below that point using the same technique. Polyurethane glue is worked in through the outer to cover the inner fixing point and fixing point of the outer. I put a taper in the polyurethane to ease the transition.
This system works with FW lines too but..... 50lb braid is a bit too bulky for lines <5wt imho. 35lb braid is a bit of a bugger to turn inside out over the flyline and inner braid section - not enough internal diameter to do it easily.
For lines to backing I use loop to loop - welded or DIY braided loops. Without an extensive cats paw the braid, even when doubled, tends to cut the line coating (floaters welded loop) as I discovered when changing lines on a bonefish reel that had seen plenty of action.
Last two SW lines I used Max Garth's co-axial loop method. Yet to be tested but soon to be tested in about 5 weeks time, I hope, on Sydney Kingies.
Cheers
Mark
Like many things in fly fishing opinions and mileage vary. I'm not keen on welded loops for FW fishing as, like Paul, I find them too bulky to glide in and out when using long leaders. When walking and stalking you don't want the loop too far outside the tip because the loose leader is bound to tangle in the shrubbery. (FWIW my set up allows the point fly to be hooked in a guide of the top section of the rod and then the leader is taken back down and around the reel handle.) Second requirement is that the transition between loop and fly line is eased to reduce cracking of the line coating at the transition point.
To suit these requirements I use either a Roman Moser minicon with the sleeve secured with a tiny tiny drop of Loctite 406. This stuff is thin enough to seep in and glue the base of the loop to the line and sleeve to the loop. The sleeve goes back over the line for 10-15mm beyond the loop base. This bit is not secured and it's sole purpose is to ease the transition.
For SW fishing with shorter leaders and bigger tip tops I am less concerned with factory loops although I still lean towards DIY braided loops. My latest version of these is a bit fiddly but very tidy.
A section of braided leader butt is secured to the end of the flyline with a nail knot of thin braid or mono or served with strong tying thread. Using a latch needle the rest of the braid is turned inside out and back over the initial section which is now the inner part of the loop. The outer covers the fixing point of what is now the inner and is secured a couple of centimetres below that point using the same technique. Polyurethane glue is worked in through the outer to cover the inner fixing point and fixing point of the outer. I put a taper in the polyurethane to ease the transition.
This system works with FW lines too but..... 50lb braid is a bit too bulky for lines <5wt imho. 35lb braid is a bit of a bugger to turn inside out over the flyline and inner braid section - not enough internal diameter to do it easily.
For lines to backing I use loop to loop - welded or DIY braided loops. Without an extensive cats paw the braid, even when doubled, tends to cut the line coating (floaters welded loop) as I discovered when changing lines on a bonefish reel that had seen plenty of action.
Last two SW lines I used Max Garth's co-axial loop method. Yet to be tested but soon to be tested in about 5 weeks time, I hope, on Sydney Kingies.
Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com
https://thecuriousflycaster.com
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19595
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Welded Loops with Bernd
Mike,
The loops (at least the SA ones) are a lot stronger than we might expect. I've smashed leaders in experiments and have recorded 22lbs. No problems with the factory weld. 22lbs is a huge pull through a fly line.
That said, reinforcing them with whippings of strong thread or 10lb mono is going to be hard to break and keeps the integrity of the loop. I hate these connectons when I'm playing fish with them inside the rod rings. You definitely need to have that rod pointing down with a strong fish. It's all very well having a small loop in the flyline but then if your Leader connection has a perfection loop in 80lb mono you've still got a bulky connection.
Cheers, Paul
The loops (at least the SA ones) are a lot stronger than we might expect. I've smashed leaders in experiments and have recorded 22lbs. No problems with the factory weld. 22lbs is a huge pull through a fly line.
That said, reinforcing them with whippings of strong thread or 10lb mono is going to be hard to break and keeps the integrity of the loop. I hate these connectons when I'm playing fish with them inside the rod rings. You definitely need to have that rod pointing down with a strong fish. It's all very well having a small loop in the flyline but then if your Leader connection has a perfection loop in 80lb mono you've still got a bulky connection.
Cheers, Paul
Welded Loops with Bernd
For me, this is one of those things I think fly fishermen "overthink". I've used straight nail knots, braided loops and welded loops and the tippet has always broken before the leader connection has failed.
I've had welds begin to fail during a session but fixed them when I got home, before they gave way. I now routinely make welded loops when required. (It's also good for joining lines to create Frankenlines.)
I wouldn't use a straight nail knot connection on a barramundi or longtail tuna trip. They're fine for trout and bream though. As Mark says, they go through the guides well.
Braided loops are great. However, I'm not cutting off a welded loop to put one on.
Basically, I'll keep using what is on the line until I find a problem with it. The various systems all work within the limitations we'd expect. Don't stress on it.
Cheers,
Graeme
I've had welds begin to fail during a session but fixed them when I got home, before they gave way. I now routinely make welded loops when required. (It's also good for joining lines to create Frankenlines.)
I wouldn't use a straight nail knot connection on a barramundi or longtail tuna trip. They're fine for trout and bream though. As Mark says, they go through the guides well.
Braided loops are great. However, I'm not cutting off a welded loop to put one on.
Basically, I'll keep using what is on the line until I find a problem with it. The various systems all work within the limitations we'd expect. Don't stress on it.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
Welded Loops with Bernd
Whoopsy. The either bit for FW loops got left out from my previous post. For FW I use either Moser minicons OR my own DIY braided loops. I hate nail knots in heavy mono clattering in and out with the risk of getting hung up at a bad time. A polyleader looped to a minicon travels nicely for me when trout fishing.
Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com
https://thecuriousflycaster.com
Welded Loops with Bernd
Here's that thread. There are some interesting discussions going on. One of the guys did some real science and tested the strength of some welded loops on a tensiometer. They were as good as the factory claimed.Michal Duzynski wrote:Hi
There is a discussion on an Aussie forum about the factory loops vs made braided loops, or other DIY loops. Discussiin concern saltwater fly lines with mono core and fishing for big strong GT.
Opinions are different and some say that factory loops are strong enough.
What your thoughts?
The guides in the Seychelles no longer cut the factory loops off to replace with braided loops. Factory loops have improved and braid quality has gone down since Gudebrod left the market.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19595
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Welded Loops with Bernd
I've lost my password Graeme. What was the result?
Thanks, Paul
Thanks, Paul
Welded Loops with Bernd
Shouldn't need a password. Maybe my ID was in the link? Don't know ...
Anyway, here's what Steve O wrote:
Graeme
Anyway, here's what Steve O wrote:
Cheers,I wondered this myself, the factory loops are so neat and small could they hold out. So I cut off all the factory loops from 5 brand new Rio gt lines and tested them in a tensile testing machine which is rig up to a computer to punch out the data. I tested breaking strains of the lines and I also made up braided loops and tested those. Interesting the gt Rio line tested varied between 21.81 kg lowest to 24.91 kg highest. ( I'm not sure if Rio have changed the core since but these where lines purchased in 2016).
The factory loops tested between 20.5 kg low and 24.15 kg high, which is pretty darn good I thought. Interesting some broken on the main line and some the loop pulled apart at the fused glue joint without the line breaking as such. There was no discernible difference in breaking strain between those that pulled apart and those that broke in this sample size.
Braided loops tested between 20.92 kg low and 24.53 kg high and all of these broke on the main line none of the loops came apart.
I concluded, in the end, there is not a lot of difference between factory and braided loops in this kind of test. Real world usage may fair different, but as you can see many have confidence in factory loops, but I do feel braided loops may have better longevity and wear, either way, all fly line loops should be periodically checked for wear. *Side note I found that when using a X crossed type catspaw loop connection with braid backing, if the flyline loop glue joint did happen to pull apart the catspaw would grab the flyline enough to still hold at 7-9 kg.
Graeme
FFi CCI