PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Fly Rod Guides

Moderators: Viking Lars, Magnus

Lou Bruno
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:16 pm

Fly Rod Guides

#1

Post by Lou Bruno » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:42 pm

Reading about fishing guides, the article mostly pertained to spinning gear, anyway heres the link.


http://anglersresource.net/TheoryoftheN ... (NGC).aspx

One of the paragraphs discusses ring size, and performance. Here's the paragraph,

Do smaller guides perform better then larger guides?

This true, generally, when applied to fly rods?
Lou

User avatar
Graeme H
Posts: 1643
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#2

Post by Graeme H » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:28 am

I'm always a bit suspicious of articles on company web sites. They are usually a marketing ploy. With that in mind, here are some thoughts of mine from experimenting with guides on fly rods.

I found this statement from that article to be relevant:
Guide rings are far more slippery than rod blanks. The real culprit in robbing distance is line slapping the rod on the cast. More guides hold the line away from the blank and casting distance improves dramatically.
I've never been comfortable with snake guides because at certain angles, the blank forms part of the guide.

I build nearly all my rods with Fuji Ti single foot guides with SiC inserts. I'm very happy with their performance. However, I have built my HT4 with REC SF guides (thin wire single foot guides), and it's the only one of my rods to have "fly rod guides" installed. I fished with it yesterday and was reminded once again why I dislike wire as a guide material. Shooting line was awful - like the line was dirty. Maybe it really is dirty, but with my usual rod builds, it doesn't seem to matter. With my normal guides, line moving through the rod (hauling, slipping, stripping, etc.) is not something I think about. With these REC guides, I notice it.

I think I'll be swapping these REC guides for guides with SiC inserts pretty soon.

Regarding the "smaller guides performing better than larger guides" thing, I'm not sure it applies to fly lines. Bigger guides are heavier, which probably has an impact on rod performance. What you may gain in shooting line you lose on rod dynamics. The article is really focusing on how line moves through the rod in conventional gear casting. We don't shoot that far most of the time and even with shooting head systems, I don't know how smaller wire guides would be of benefit. Maybe someone else has played with those parameters?

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 12267
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:37 am

That’s an interesting article Lou. I share the same misgivings as Graeme does. I’ve always thought that the minimum number of guides you can get away with is better because of 1) reduced friction and 2) reduced weight. Lined rings keep the line away from the blank but when shooting the line may touch the blank (I’m not sure and we would have to look at slow motion videos to see).

I do like the Torzite material that this manufacturer makes. Hugely expensive and certainly superior to snakes etc. but how much better than SiC I don’t know - although the rings appear bullet-proof.

It would be nice to make some further experiments with rings and positioning. I’ve experimented with mock-up rings and tape but unfortunately to really test under tough casting conditions they need to be whipped.

I think an argument against rings that are excessively large - apart from weight - is that the line (flyline) will have a tendency to vibrate as it shoots I’m not convinced that smaller ring sizes increase friction however they need to be sufficiently large to allow knots to pass through easily.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Nick
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:15 pm

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#4

Post by Nick » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Graeme H wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:28 am
I have built my HT4 with REC SF guides (thin wire single foot guides), and it's the only one of my rods to have "fly rod guides" installed. I fished with it yesterday and was reminded once again why I dislike wire as a guide material. Shooting line was awful - like the line was dirty. Maybe it really is dirty, but with my usual rod builds, it doesn't seem to matter. With my normal guides, line moving through the rod (hauling, slipping, stripping, etc.) is not something I think about. With these REC guides, I notice it.

Cheers,
Graeme
Interesting. I was noticing the exact some thing fishing with a rod built with single foot guides last weekend. The line was really dirty, but the effect seemed much greater with the single foot guides than it does with snakes. Maybe something to do with the angle between the line and the wire? 90 degrees with a small contact point with single foot guides, ~ 45 degrees and therefore a larger contact point with snakes? Probably nothing whatsoever to do with that!

I am reluctant to put any sort of lined guides on a fly rod. I did it once, and the extra weight really affected the action of the rod in a negative way. Perhaps I should try again. That was 30 years ago, and I think that lined guides have improved a bit since then!

User avatar
Graeme H
Posts: 1643
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#5

Post by Graeme H » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:14 pm

Nick wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:26 pm
I am reluctant to put any sort of lined guides on a fly rod. I did it once, and the extra weight really affected the action of the rod in a negative way. Perhaps I should try again. That was 30 years ago, and I think that lined guides have improved a bit since then!
Yep, they have changed a lot. The ones with titanium frames are very light, making them viable as an alternative to the older wire guides we're used to. I would not even consider it with steel frames.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 12267
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#6

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 am

That’s a good question, Nick. It could also be that they are thinner or because they are more flexible - but the angle is not something that I had considered before.

Mind you I always twist my rings out to 45 degrees by twisting the top three sections of the blank. This would create a similar angle because the recoils tilt forward and they are most definitely still poor performers with dirty lines and polyurethane ones.

They have a tendency to screech with dry lines. Having said that, apart from when fishing shooting heads, I think recoils are far superior just for the lighter weight.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 3673
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#7

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:31 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 am

They have a tendency to screech with dry lines. Having said that, apart from when fishing shooting heads, I think recoils are far superior just for the lighter weight.

Cheers, Paul
What's with shootingheads?

I really dislike single leg recoils, and the weight save is not enough for me to change my mind 🤣

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 12267
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#8

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:15 am

Shooting head connections seem to get stuck in the recoils - it might be because of their flexibility or as Nick points out the angles involved. In fact we are currently changing rings on an HT for this reason. It’s a problem Lars first discovered some time ago and I’ve been running with that suggestion since.

I’m a big fan of Recoils but not the stripping guides nor the tip ring. The strippers screech and the tip ring looks ugly!

Best rings IMO are the Torzite Titaniums but only on the heavier line weights for me. Mind you when a set of rings costs $100 then it has better be worth it!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 3673
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#9

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:37 am

Ah, yeah, the connection hanging up has been a problem on single legs since they where introduced, and it does seem to be the angle mostly causing it, as all single leg snakes have it, the recoils just seem to make it worse because they can move... And the old lifted ones where really crap, as the line got stuck on the backcast and might not come loose on the forward 🙈

What is the advantage of torzite over sic for flylines?

I have a rod with titanium sics, but it needs to be a stiff one for the rod not starting to feel sluggish... Are the torzite ones lighter?

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

Mangrove Cuckoo
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:51 am

Re: Fly Rod Guides

#10

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:29 am

After using a few rods with single foot guides I have come to the conclusion that they are not a good choice for saltwater rods.

I guess they are OK for lighter rods used on smaller fish, where a slim nail knot can be used at the leader, but the bulkier connections hang up horribly.

Also, sliding rods into under-gunwale rod tubes is a pain in the ass with the single foot guides - they bang to a stop at each one. Snake guides slide in smoothly.

And, finally, the occasional tangled flyline that you don't notice until a big fish is evaporating your slack on the deck has no chance of clearing SFGs. With snakes, turning the rod over with guides up somehow helps the tangles work through... sometimes.
“Very simple man. Catching fish makes me happy. Scaringly simple.”

Håvard Stubø

Post Reply

Return to “Tackle”