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Heavier guides and effect on rod action

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bartdezwaan
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Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#1

Post by bartdezwaan » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:08 pm

When I use rods with rings other than Torzites, the rings wear out pretty quickly,
That is when using them for casting training/demonstations.
I am considering replacing some of the rings for something like Torzites.
I would like to hear your experiences with swapping the guides for heavier ones. Did it effect the rod action a lot?

Cheers, Bart

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Fla
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#2

Post by Fla » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:07 pm

Hi Bart

I built up two HT4s, one with original recoils, one with small (size 5 or 5.5) torzites. I saved some weight on both by replacing the standard sleeve tip guide with a just another running guide.
The difference in action was remarkable, much more than I expected, and I wouldn't use torzites on a 4 weight again. It's still a great rod, but it lacks some of the light crispness/springiness of the original ht4. I also liked my recoil rod slightly better than Paul's with the H&H sleeve tip top.
Paul and me were testing all 3 rods next to each other in Hungary 1 or 2 years ago with a couple different 4 weight lines. I'm sure he can describe the difference in action more precise than I, if he can remember (there was some wine and Palinka involved during these days).

The difference in action will be less pronounced the heavier the rod rating (or rod stiffness, Lasse ;)), I wouldn't hesitate experimenting with Torzites again on a six weight plus...

Cheers
Flavio

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bartdezwaan
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#3

Post by bartdezwaan » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:25 pm

Thank you very much for the info Flavio.
You confirm my suspicions.
I might replace them on a Gloomis #8, but not the lighter rods.

Cheers, Bart

Torsten
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#4

Post by Torsten » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:41 pm

Hi Bart,

I think Graeme is a big fan of these guides .. I've put ceramic guides on all casting sport rods, but not yet on fishing rods.
However, I can't imagine that the weight is really an issue. This depends on the guides you have already in use. E.g. T-KTTG 5.5 guides weight ~0.1g, a typical rod tip #5 weights AFAIK 3-4 grams. At least compared to standard stainless snake guides I'd expect little weight differences.

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Fla
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#5

Post by Fla » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:28 pm

I measured all the guides but can't find the data now. I think the weight of the recoils was 0.05 g, the torzites 0.12 g, the H&H tip top 0.27 g, but I am not sure if I remember correctly. I didn't expect a noticeable difference in action from the guide weight difference, but it's quite apparent. I measured the stiffness of both blanks by the deflection with some weight (about 5 to 20 g) attached to the tip - didn't find a difference. I can't exclude though, that the action of the blanks is different due to other reasons than the guide weight (and overall stiffness)...

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Graeme H
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#6

Post by Graeme H » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:36 pm

I haven't tried the Torzite ones. All mine are the Fuji Ti framed SF guides with SiC inserts. I've got them on all the rods I've built except the HT4, on which I have the REC SF guides. I dislike those ones a LOT! (They are noisey, don't shoot line as well and "grab" knots all the time.)

If I rebuild the rod (and I may do that) I'll put my normal SiC guides on it. I don't think they are heavy enough to make a significant difference to the rod action but they make a difference to how it fishes..

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#7

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:52 pm

Fla wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:28 pm
I measured all the guides but can't find the data now. I think the weight of the recoils was 0.05 g, the torzites 0.12 g, the H&H tip top 0.27 g, but I am not sure if I remember correctly. I didn't expect a noticeable difference in action from the guide weight difference, but it's quite apparent. I measured the stiffness of both blanks by the deflection with some weight (about 5 to 20 g) attached to the tip - didn't find a difference. I can't exclude though, that the action of the blanks is different due to other reasons than the guide weight (and overall stiffness)...
Having put sic titaniums on a couple of rods, including same blank back and forth, its the added weight, and the lower the line weight intended for the rod (softer the blank) , the more it matters.
Easy way of trying out this, is to add a couple of tiny split shots on the upper section and go cast.
Some like the added counterflex feeling, and some hate it.

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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bartdezwaan
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#8

Post by bartdezwaan » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:32 pm

Thanks for all the input.
I will just have to try and see ;)

Cheers, Bart

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Merlin
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#9

Post by Merlin » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:15 pm

Hi Bart

Action is an umbrella term which can include rod deflection, rod speed, MOI, and maybe other things which are unfortunately not independent from each other. The question here is related to the speed of the tackle. This speed is proportional to the (square root of both) rod stiffness on one side, and the reciprocal of the sum of the mass of the carry and the equivalent mass at tip of the rod (which depends on design, is linked to MOI and is related to rod deflection type).

Consequently, a change in hardware mass (guides and wraps) has more influence on a light line rod (mass of carry) by comparison to a heavy line rod. If you consider rods in the #3 to #7 range, it is likely that the set of guides remains approximately the same. The key sections are the tip ones, and the most influential guide is the tip top one. You can choose what you like for the stripping guide; rod speed does not care about that one. The question remains about the potential influence of guide feet on rod stiffness, but until someone comes with measured figures showing such an influence, we can consider that it is negligible.

This phenomenon is confirmed by observation, no surprise here. Sometimes guides and wraps weight has been used as a tuning parameter (old bass rods). Keep them as light as possible if you prefer a fast rod, especially if the rod is set for a light line. For a #10 rod, the potential advantage of light hardware is more questionable, but real.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Paul Arden
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Re: Heavier guides and effect on rod action

#10

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:47 pm

Paul and me were testing all 3 rods next to each other in Hungary 1 or 2 years ago with a couple different 4 weight lines.
I think it’s very noticeable on these lighter rods. What I’m not sure about is how light a rod you can go with Torzites. I’m definitely going to have them fitted to a 7WT just for comparison. I love Recoils for their light weight, but when it comes to shooting line you can’t beat Torzites.

I would like to run tests with SICs vs Torzites casting back to back. The great thing about the TTs is that we have never had one back. Never had the insert fall out for example. We must have fitted 600 rings now so that really speaks volumes about the quality of these rings. The only drawback apart from weight is they are damned expensive!

Cheers, Paul
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