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Bernd Ziesche
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#21

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:26 pm

petevicar wrote: I would be very surprised if it's just you and Bernd who are not happy there.
Hi Pete,
that indeed is a very good point!
Something I have come across in all organisations I have been with yet:
There are different levels of instructor certs. Those not yet having achieved the highest level, but still wanting to make the next level, are often shy to speak truth. This is especially when some of the committee members might hear them saying crytical things. And I really understand it to be this way - especially if a committee acts in such rigorous ways.

There are committee members who immediately send me a private email and apologized. I of course appreciate. Between the lines I could smell a taste of fear other committee members to find out about it.

I know what I really like Paul for: He has no fear to speak out truth. It's that what will start (proper) changes mostly!
Greets
Bernd
p.s.: Ok, I ll think about a serious beard. Usually on fishing trips I shave after (and never before) having nailed a serious fish. So that is why you rarely see me with.... :p :D :cool: :ninja:

p.s.s: Good points in your post, Mark.
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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#22

Post by alex vulev » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:48 am

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Those not yet having achieved the highest level, but still wanting to make the next level, are often shy to speak truth. This is especially when some of the committee members might hear them saying crytical things.

There are committee members who immediately send me a private email and apologized. I of course appreciate. Between the lines I could smell a taste of fear other committee members to find out about it.



p.s.: Ok, I ll think about a serious beard. Usually on fishing trips I shave after (and never before) having nailed a serious fish. So that is why you rarely see me with.... :p :D :cool: :ninja:
Hi Bernd,
Sounds like life in a police state, fly fishing is an open source everything is debatable and I agree about the beard - it helps you hiding from the fish :D
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"

page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly

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Paul Arden
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#23

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:55 am

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the Board! I think one of the problems is that we actually don't know really why we've been thrown out! So there's a bit of speculation on our part too. The letter Bernd and I received stated that we had to resign because two members of the committee had unsolvable personal conflicts with us and we had a different vision for the association than the committee. And that's it!

Now I don't have any unsolvable personal conflicts with anyone and I don't have a vision for the association, so Christ knows what that committee think or discuss on their own. So that's basically where we are, and there can be no discussion, I can write to them but they don't reply. It's all very peculiar!

It's a shame because now there is no associations I can fully recommend. "I want to become an instructor, should I join IFFF, EFFA, AAPGAI or the AQAP?" "Definitely go for the AQAP, it's the most democratic of the four."

Cheers, Paul
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#24

Post by alex vulev » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:10 am

[quote="Paul Arden[/quote]The letter Bernd and I received stated that we had to resign because two members of the committee had unsolvable personal conflicts with us and we had a different vision for the association than the committee. And that's it!



Cheers, Paul[/quote]
Sounds like you've been in a marriage to an organization, but now you can celebrate the divorce and go fishing :) can't think of a better choice :ninja:
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"

page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly

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#25

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:29 am

Yes it's just a shame though because I did actually believe in the whole certification/qualification side of flycasting instruction. But when the examiners are a decade out of date and believe that the anchor loads the rod, or the rod is a big bloody spring, or that the purpose of the forward taper is to speed up the loop (?) then you're in deep water.

I have lists of questions that were asked in exams that show a complete misunderstanding on the part of the examiner as to how things work. And in some ways that's fine, because we really don't know it all, but what's not fine about it is it's not current. And if you examine someone and ask them "what is the purpose of the front taper?" and he says, "it's to remove energy from the loop and slow it down, I can give you the physics if you want" and you say, "no I don't need physics, I just need a hose pipe, a nozzle and some common sense, because when I put the three together the water goes further, and so I can tell you - and without the use of physics - that the purpose of the forward taper is to speed up the loop!" then you have a problem.

(I tried to fix that by the way. Obviously in an exam you can't fix that, but I have a problem now because I have to go to the candidate later and say, "You know when we asked you about the function of the forward taper and said it was to speed up the loop? Well actually that's not true... And you don't need a hosepipe to work this out, just cast without a leader", so anyway I did this and also wrote to the examiner - who will remain nameless - three times. The first time he ignored me. So I wrote to him again, this time also asking a separate question which he answered. So I knew he was getting my emails. I asked him again about the hosepipe, but nothing back again, so I assumed he was maybe a little bit embarrassed or who knows what? So I thought, "well he knows it now, so we're in the clear".

But then in the last set of exams he again asked exactly the same question and gave exactly the same hose-pipe answer! I've even followed this up again, with a double set of emails, and no reply once again! That is the mentality right at the centre of the examinations.)

So I guess that's one of the guys who might have a problem with me :cool:

Cheers, Paul
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#26

Post by alex vulev » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:18 am

Paul Arden wrote:or the rod is a big bloody spring



So I guess that's one of the guys who might have a problem with me :cool:

Cheers, Paul
'The rod is a spring' - Charles Ritz in his book "A fly fishers life" from the mid 1970's but I think there are even earlier authors from the greenhart/bamboo era stating the same :D
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"

page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly

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#27

Post by Geenomad » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:27 am

Paul Arden wrote:Hi Mark,

Welcome to the Board! I think one of the problems is that we actually don't know really why we've been thrown out! So there's a bit of speculation on our part too. The letter Bernd and I received stated that we had to resign because two members of the committee had unsolvable personal conflicts with us and we had a different vision for the association than the committee. And that's it!
Hi Paul. Thanks for the welcome. In a couple of my past lives I've been a lawyer as well as an organisational researcher and consultant. What I picked up on, fwiw, in this thread is the strong suggestion of summary dismissal, the lack of procedural fairness and inability to deal with dissent if not mere differences of opinion. I'll leave the legal aspects alone.

From my perspective the reactive kangaroo court stuff - no warnings, no ability to show cause why etc, no discussion or negotiation are probably all signs of an organisation with serious cultural and probably structural problems as well. Usually it's glossed over as personality conflict but the question begged is how the context allowed the wound to fester.

I say this, of course, without knowing any of the detail but I doubt the detail would change my impression. I mean it's not like you've been sprung cleaning out the till or touching up the vicar's wife. :D

Shitty situation for sure leaving the choice of taking a walk or taking on the clean up process. Seems to me you've probably made a reasonable choice.

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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Bernd Ziesche
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#28

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:38 am

It's fair to describe the fly rod being mainly used like a big spring when talking about the Bow and Arrow cast (only). :)
After we have discussed this numerous times here on SL, I think we are all on the same page here now. Charles was up to date in his time. And that's an important point Paul made.

Anyway, sometimes we meet people who are not much interested in learning. I (lately) was taught the hose pipe analogy either. Talking about the AAPGAI there were also other examiners like Tony Riley who was very interested in learning new things and exchanging our knowledge. Indeed I would call him to be well updated and learnt good stuff by him.

In an exam, Paul, I would always step in directly. No sense in telling the candidate to be wrong, if just one examiner knows he isn't! Examiners can learn, even in an exam, nothing bad in that (I think).
In an AAPGAI assesment "teaching" isn't allowed as far as I was told. So teaching the hose pipe analogy should not be possible there anyway.

I am confronted with the question of which organisation to aim for quite often a year. I just tell them the pros and cons based on what I know... Everyone is free to choose.
Greets
B
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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#29

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:47 am

Mike Heritage wrote:It looks like they don't want me back either
Whatever might be the reason here, they are loosing a very fine instructor. As an organisation I would do a lot to get you in! (Even though you can make me look bad in distance that is :D )
Way too much things inside the AAPGAI are pointing in a wrong direction imo.
B
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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#30

Post by alex vulev » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:18 am

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Charles was up to date in his time.




B

How could Charles be right at his time Bernd if he's wrong today but my point is not about it , its that fly fishing has a very conservative backgroung history and as far as certain authority nor matter if right or wrong is asserting certain 'truth' its been generally accepted and repeated by a noncritical unthoughtful public for ages
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"

page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly

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