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Post Number:#61  Postby Morsie » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:41 pm

How long do you want each test to last?
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Post Number:#62  Postby Paul Arden » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:06 pm

How much longer do you think it would take you to write legible notes? :laugh: If you’re like me then I’m sure your page is crammed full of little notes of words said, missed, little diagrams of loops - the only change that needs to happen is that they become legible to other people!

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Post Number:#63  Postby Gmstuart1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Morsie wrote:How long do you want each test to last?


Peter,

I think I could do the entire test in less than 45 minutes. The reading of tasks takes a lot of time and anyone prepared to pass already knows what is required of every single task. Another time consumer of time are the multiple meetings to walk away and talk about the tasks. If you have two examiners does one need to convene with the other to convince them that the task was done well enough or could you just score it and go to the end to add up the score. That's what Dayle was trying to do with the rubric. If you used the rubric to score there's no need for meetings other than to shake up the candidates. If the meetings are not to create unnecessary additional nerves, then the EDP should just indicate the breaks after a certain number of tasks.

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Post Number:#64  Postby Paul Arden » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:49 pm

Hi Greg,

I agree with you regards the reading of the tasks. I actually recommend to strong candidates that they offer to eliminate this. The “examiners’ huddle” is about trying to get on the same page and it’s for their benefit. I don’t think that an MCI test can be done in 45 mins! CCI certainly. Both can certainly be marked properly in the time provided.

The key to eliminate time is to get rid of the prompting. Rather a few years ago, I was part of an exam which was being assessed by an independent examiner who regarded prompting as being unfair and not a proper examination. Examiners up to that point regarded it as testing procedure, looking for answers/knowledge. If you eliminate this prompting then tests will be less than half the time.

And I think he has a point. If the instructor forgets to mention something then mark him accordingly! Anything else is exam assistance. There’s a lot more that can be done here but at the very least a score sheet that’s filled out properly and handed to the candidates at the end of the test is a no-brainer. That would be a start.

And an exam should never become a workshop.

Cheers, Paul
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Post Number:#65  Postby Jonathan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 pm

With very much less knowledge than many on this forum, with tasks 16 - 22 in part 2 (Teaching) having expected times of 7 minutes each (total 49 minutes), is 45 minutes for the entire test not being rather optimistic?
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Post Number:#66  Postby Paul Arden » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:09 am

Since the CCI test has changed I’d expect even the fast ones to take a little longer. I don’t know the time slot now but it used to be 90 minutes with 60 being fast. 45 minutes is not unknown - that’s obviously an extremely strong candidate. MCI can be done in 2 hrs but 3 is the norm. The new test is much more thorough - I think it will be difficult to finish the complete test and fail in 3 hrs with prompting.

Apart from reading out the questions this is where the time is taken up. For example candidate is asked to demonstrate wide loops and talks about wide casting arc, lots of wrist but doesn’t mention tip path. So now the examiner starts to probe - he might ask do all wide arcs cause big loops, or he might be more direct and ask why a wide arc causes a big loop, but this can also be considered promoting, or indeed “teaching”.

An enormous amount of testing time can be taken up looking for knowledge that may or may not be there by asking related but indirect questions - it’s the fun part of examining. However independent examiners’ examiners don’t like this approach and suggest that instead of prompting, you write down everything said (key points) and not said and mark the test accordingly. Fair enough I say. It’s a massive departure from how fly casting instructor exams are currently examined but it is fair and would shorten test times considerably. In fact it will be the strong candidates who will make the tests longer and the weak candidates who have less knowledge will be the faster tests.

Since this observation came up I’ve spent quite a few years thinking about it and I think it’s a better way. I’m sure that those who professionally examine examiners will be pleased to hear that :laugh:

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Post Number:#67  Postby Gmstuart1 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Paul Arden wrote:Hi Greg,

I agree with you regards the reading of the tasks. I actually recommend to strong candidates that they offer to eliminate this. The “examiners’ huddle” is about trying to get on the same page and it’s for their benefit. I don’t think that an MCI test can be done in 45 mins! CCI certainly. Both can certainly be marked properly in the time provided.

The key to eliminate time is to get rid of the prompting. Rather a few years ago, I was part of an exam which was being assessed by an independent examiner who regarded prompting as being unfair and not a proper examination. Examiners up to that point regarded it as testing procedure, looking for answers/knowledge. If you eliminate this prompting then tests will be less than half the time.

And I think he has a point. If the instructor forgets to mention something then mark him accordingly! Anything else is exam assistance. There’s a lot more that can be done here but at the very least a score sheet that’s filled out properly and handed to the candidates at the end of the test is a no-brainer. That would be a start.

And an exam should never become a workshop.

Cheers, Paul


Paul,

I was definitely just talking CCI for the 45 minutes. I have no clue about an MCI test since I've never had one :) haha! I really don't even remember how long the CCI took (When I actually made it through both parts haha!). 3 Hours for MCI seems reasonable to me. I have heard about some taking all day!

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Post Number:#68  Postby Morsie » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:38 pm

The new procedures for the CI test usually means the casting component (the first 15 tasks) are moved through pretty quickly, especially those tasks that are covered to some degree in more depth in the teaching tasks.

I have never been involved in a test where the side bar discussions used by examiners are done to unsettle a candidate. They are done for a variety of reasons, sometimes to let a candidate settle themselves, have a drink of water and think about what might need to be done. It was 33° in Malaysia recently and lots of water needed to be drunk. As Paul said these discussions are about what we're seeing and about what questions might need to be asked. With one examiner standing in close and the other watching from front different things are being seen, they need to be discussed and every 5 tasks or so seems fair enough. Having a set break time might not allow for current conditions.

"An exam should never become a workshop". I can't agree, and like so many things any answer can begin with, "it depends". When you have someone who is completely under prepared they are usually very grateful for a workshop, after all they have the attention of one, two or even three MCI's, and rather than have them go through the teaching tasks, when they've not passed the casting, why not make the offer. If someone has passed the casting well, but hits the wall at the teaching, then sure, you still go right through the test. Every test is a little different in that we're dealing with people who are all very different. I saw someone recently who had not passed and got very upset when he was offered a workshop and yet another person who was all over the opportunity. There is the human element here.

The very good candidate tests are very quick, the bad tests are also quick, its the borderline ones that can drag on for a long time and its also easy for people to have complete brain snaps where their mind goes vacant. Its also very easy to say "I could do the test in 45 minutes" when you've already passed it. That simply does not take into account many, many, things.
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