PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Fixing low backcast trajectory

Moderators: Paul Arden, Bernd Ziesche, Lasse Karlsson

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#21

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Jarmo,

The casting above was actually for delivery shots, not distance but the same applies. I’m surprised there is pressure on the shoulder - I certainly can feel it if I don’t rotate the shoulders so that they are pointing to the target.

Another option would be to arch your back slightly so that the rod is still vertical. I do this myself.

Do you have problems with Flexion or just external rotation? Apart from reverse delivery shots and comp distance I rarely cast anything apart from closed stance. Then it’s closed accuracy style, target in my mind above and behind me, ring a bell, palm-forward V-grip, lift the elbow into the backcast to send the loop high. Fishing wise 100ft no problem. I’m actually of the opinion that people move to open stance far too early - in fact many casters “default” position is open stance.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
jarmo
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:48 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#22

Post by jarmo »

Paul Arden wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:38 am Do you have problems with Flexion or just external rotation?
Just external rotation.
Apart from reverse delivery shots and comp distance I rarely cast anything apart from closed stance. Then it’s closed accuracy style, target in my mind above and behind me, ring a bell, palm-forward V-grip, lift the elbow into the backcast to send the loop high. Fishing wise 100ft no problem. I’m actually of the opinion that people move to open stance far too early - in fact many casters “default” position is open stance.
For fishing I prefer closed stance and elbow-in-front -technique at closer distances.

But, for example, MCI 50' no haul, which is kinda relevant atm, I can do it with the closed stance, but I get smoother power application and tighter loops with a longer stroke (Scott G 6wt, Barrio GT125). So the choice is pretty obvious.
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#23

Post by Paul Arden »

It’s measured feet to fly? 9’rod, 9’ leader? That’s only 32’ of fly line. I certainly wouldn’t be opening up for that... must be the softer rod! I’ll try to replicate what you are doing with a MED6 on the HT4. That will be quite interesting.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
jarmo
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:48 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#24

Post by jarmo »

Paul Arden wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:17 am It’s measured feet to fly? 9’rod, 9’ leader? That’s only 32’ of fly line.
Yes, feet to fly, 8' leader, 9' rod.
I certainly wouldn’t be opening up for that... must be the softer rod! I’ll try to replicate what you are doing with a MED6 on the HT4. That will be quite interesting.
I go for 1) smoothness 2) very tight loops.

Looking forward to your expert input/output!
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#25

Post by Paul Arden »

Something to consider when it comes to leader length is the shorter you make it the more difficult you make elements of the test. I had one guy training for his MCI turn up with a leader as short as allowed ie 7’6 - I think he felt it made his accuracy easier. I would have a 9 foot leader and add tippet. Short leaders can cause problems in themselves and you are putting yourself at a disadvantage by going as short as allowed.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
Boisker
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:30 pm
Answers: 0

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#26

Post by Boisker »

Hey Paul... the shoulder thing and tucking the rod butt, that Jarmo mentioned in an earlier post I can also feel more in my shoulder.... I have a long-standing rotator cuff injury.
It surprised me that such a small difference in the position of the rod/hand has a noticeable effect. Maybe with practice as the muscle gets more used to the position it would reduce... but on balance I think probably not.

I’ve been working on my casting in prep for the aapgai instructors qualification, and met with my mentor (master level), one of the things I need to work on is starting the cast with the butt tucked into my arm (or at least a lot closer) I can do it and it’s becoming more comfortable, but in reality I will probably only ever do it fully for instruction, fishing on my own it’s always going to be more open starting point as that is more comfortable.

Another thing, that I was aware of, is I cast slightly at an angle (from front to back), straight tracking in both planes but cutting slightly across my body. This was particularly obvious with the Spey casts, as it picks up more water and makes more noise on the actual delivery part of the cast. This is an easy fix at usual casting distances, even when fishing if casting to a sighted fish I would close up my stance (dart throwing the you refer to in the casting vids) and cast dead straight.
I’ve been playing about and trying to work out why my natural tendency was to cast slightly across my body... turns out it was the rotator cuff again, having the finishing position of my hand slightly across my body is easier on my shoulder. I can keep it dead straight comfortably, it’s just getting the muscle memory to always do it... but it is and I think will remain slightly more comfortable with the finishing point slightly across my body.

Hope that makes sense, hopefully we’ll get a chance to meet late summer and I can show you in person.
Strange things joints :D :D :D
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#27

Post by Paul Arden »

Interesting. Thanks Matt, yes it will be great to meet and cast together! Shouldn’t the Spey casts always be tilted slightly? Otherwise the line collides with the shoulder and rod! Or do you mean that your right shoulder is pointed backwards slightly (reference to closed stance)?

My advice is always that if it hurts then don’t do it! Certainly dealing with injuries is not my area of expertise and a sports physician needs to be involved. I’m surprised to learn that the grip plays such a role in how it affects the shoulder injury (not totally surprised since everything is related!). I was hoping that there were angles where it could work because it makes such a control difference to the rod/cast and reduces pressure on the wrist.

Does it hurt when you throw a ball?

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
Boisker
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:30 pm
Answers: 0

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#28

Post by Boisker »

Hi Paul
If I throw a ball in hard I can definitely feel it.
It’s not really that it is really painful, uncomfortable, getting more uncomfortable if I keep doing the same thing repetitively (practicing where obviously you make far more casts it is more noticeable); so fishing on my usual SW rivers it’s fine as I am generally making different casts, a lot under the rod tip.

Not sure I explained the tracking thing that well on the last post...
Image
The black line is feet/body / shoulders, blue would be a usual cast, my shoulder feels slightly easier if I cast along the red line (not as much of an angle as shown, in reality it is a slight angle across the body).
I can cast along the blue line fine, but it is marginally more comfortable along the red, so over time I’ve just got used to doing it that way. So even on the roll/Spey forward cast element (with the rod canted out) I was still following the red trajectory (without the backcast element); it’s easy enough for me to straighten to the blue line, just a matter of changing an ingrained habit.
Boisker
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:30 pm
Answers: 0

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#29

Post by Boisker »

As additional info... rotator cuff injury is really common, a lot of people have it to a minor degree without really knowing.
Easy to pick up if there might be a problem (I’m not a doc, so this may not just relate to rotator cuff)..
If you stand with your arms loose by your side, back of the hand facing out in the direction you a facing... lift your arm above your head, keeping it straight and ending with the upper arm against your ear...
Then repeat, but have your palm facing outwards when you hand is by your leg, keep the palm in that position as you lift your arm above your head until the upper arm is by your ear.....
If the first arm lift hurts / aches in your shoulder and the second doesn’t it’s most likely rotator cuff related.

Basically the muscle is getting pinched in the joint in the first lift, rotating the palm outwards in the second opens up the gap in the joint and stops the muscle getting pinched...

I can only assume that following the red line in the post above helps open the joint slightly.
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#30

Post by Paul Arden »

Right got it. Ignoring shoulder problems for a moment, that’s the single biggest tracking fault I see. Virtually every caster has it, even at comp level. When I first discovered I was doing it, I had thought I was casting straight. And the interesting thing is when I look backwards and pick a target that I think is directly behind me, when I actually measure it (more on this in a moment) I find it’s 20-30 degrees off.

So to measure it straight I do what Graeme taught me, which is to lay the rod on the ground pointing at the forward target, walk around to the front of the rod and scan down the rod to find the back target.

Regards the shoulder, this is beyond how I can help. You’ll just have to keep front and back aligned. Which means I suppose casting with your shoulders started at an angle to the forward cast. After all you don’t want to be altering angles as you increase distance.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
Post Reply

Return to “Teaching”