A dip with no rise would point the line towards the ground/water, so you'd end up with a short cast in the same way that you would aim downwards for a short cast. (Picture stolen from the old board ... )
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Tailing Loops in exams (Scott's FP 21012016)
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Tailing Loops in exams (Scott's FP 21012016)
Hi Mark
Debate or discussion either is quite ok with me
From the bottom, Bernd dropped his hand, that was the dip, and then thrust upwards, there's your rise, and still no tail!
The pic is from Jason Borgers tailing loop horror front page, and yes there's a rise after the dip, both clearly seen. Take away the rise and look at the lines layout.
The hose experiment is turning this upside down, and isn't a good analogy for how this happens. Notice I haven't said the rise doesn't do anything! Take a piece of beadchain on a smooth surface, accelerate it straight, dip, and continue in the first direction, and see if you get a wave or not.
The rodtip is accelerating the line in the dip, not in the rise. The rise accentuates the tail, but isn't necessary to get one.
Cheers
Lasse
Debate or discussion either is quite ok with me
From the bottom, Bernd dropped his hand, that was the dip, and then thrust upwards, there's your rise, and still no tail!
The pic is from Jason Borgers tailing loop horror front page, and yes there's a rise after the dip, both clearly seen. Take away the rise and look at the lines layout.
The hose experiment is turning this upside down, and isn't a good analogy for how this happens. Notice I haven't said the rise doesn't do anything! Take a piece of beadchain on a smooth surface, accelerate it straight, dip, and continue in the first direction, and see if you get a wave or not.
The rodtip is accelerating the line in the dip, not in the rise. The rise accentuates the tail, but isn't necessary to get one.
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
- Lasse Karlsson
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Tailing Loops in exams (Scott's FP 21012016)
Graeme H wrote:A dip with no rise would point the line towards the ground/water, so you'd end up with a short cast in the same way that you would aim downwards for a short cast. (Picture stolen from the old board ... )
Hi Graeme
The dip does give the wave direction, try doing just the rise and see what you get
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Tailing Loops in exams (Scott's FP 21012016)
Ah, a misunderstanding. I haven't seen the vid and thought you were saying that is what it took for Bernd to throw a tail with the broomstick. I stand corrected.Lasse Karlsson wrote:
From the bottom, Bernd dropped his hand, that was the dip, and then thrust upwards, there's your rise, and still no tail!
Last time around with this mate. Hard to take away the rise from the pic. I have to imagine it's not there and also the red line is a fairly dominant presence. Also the line is very difficult or impossible to see for all takes of the rod.Lasse Karlsson wrote: The pic is from Jason Borgers tailing loop horror front page, and yes there's a rise after the dip, both clearly seen. Take away the rise and look at the lines layout.
The hose experiment is turning this upside down, and isn't a good analogy for how this happens. Notice I haven't said the rise doesn't do anything! Take a piece of beadchain on a smooth surface, accelerate it straight, dip, and continue in the first direction, and see if you get a wave or not.
The rodtip is accelerating the line in the dip, not in the rise. The rise accentuates the tail, but isn't necessary to get one.
But let's try this.The back cast line appears to have finished well below the horizontal. It's on the rise from the getgo, then it dips and then rises and then dips again. Like I said a pic of someone trying to throw a tail. Putting that aside and pressing forward.
Counting rods from left to right I can't see the line for the first four rods. Five has no obvious wave forming. Six has a slight wave and is about the bottom of the dip. Seven to ten are on the rise and there is a distinct wave.
Counting from right to left. Red line (Rod 1) appears to come after 3 rods of counterflex. I see the tail forming but that is after both dip and rise. Still going right to left. Rod 4 is dipping again and so is rod 5. So for my money ($0.02AUD) the rise is still very much in the frame for causing the wave.
The hose. Yes it's upside down but this is about waves traveling along media and I don't see why it isn't a good analogy since it involves creating a wave as does plucking a guitar string.
Bead chain. Not sure if I have some long enough. (Usually cut it up for bonefish flies. :^) If I have I will try your suggested experiment. Please reciprocate and try one or both of mine.
Acceleration. Yep rod is accelerating the line as the rod compresses - causing the dip.
During the rise it may or may not be accelerating the line but it is still propelling it albeit at a possibly reduced rate of acceleration (or even velocity) and that, if you like, is my point. The tip is still working on the line, still contributing to tension. And of course I could ask for the non existent speedo readings on the line at all stages but I'm not so I'm giving you the best acceleration/deceleration case in good faith. For all we know it started accelerating the line again after the rise but again I'll just raise that and not rely on it.
Acceleration and deceleration cause the dip and the rise respectively - on that we agree. Acceleration by itself, however, will not create a tailing loop type traveling wave and neither will deceleration as I understand it. The wave needs both to travel and any acceleration after it has formed will increase line tension and make it travel faster/further along the cast line.
It may even be that for the nastiest tail you need acceleration, deceleration and acceleration again to really bugger things up properly.
Cheers
Mark
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- Lasse Karlsson
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Tailing Loops in exams (Scott's FP 21012016)
Hi Mark
Lets start with the hose, you flip it upside down and where does that leave gravity? If a rise is what it takes to make the wave, then it should also be moving the hose up that creates a wave in it! Do you get a wave if you move it down only?
Jasons picture, it's the lines shape I'm looking at, there is a very destinct drop that corresponds to the dip, and the rise gives a nice slope upwards. As with all tailing loops, the actual dip and rise are minute compared to the size in the line.
And again I'm not ruling out the rise as a part of the equation, it's just that there's more going on that can bethat simplified, however much we would like it to be that cut and dried.
Aitor shot a good video of Paul doing a tail that appears to be only a rise until you take a good look at the direction of the wave and compare it to the original falsecasting direction, and then the direction the loop takes when there's a tail
Cheers
Lasse
Lets start with the hose, you flip it upside down and where does that leave gravity? If a rise is what it takes to make the wave, then it should also be moving the hose up that creates a wave in it! Do you get a wave if you move it down only?
Jasons picture, it's the lines shape I'm looking at, there is a very destinct drop that corresponds to the dip, and the rise gives a nice slope upwards. As with all tailing loops, the actual dip and rise are minute compared to the size in the line.
And again I'm not ruling out the rise as a part of the equation, it's just that there's more going on that can bethat simplified, however much we would like it to be that cut and dried.
Aitor shot a good video of Paul doing a tail that appears to be only a rise until you take a good look at the direction of the wave and compare it to the original falsecasting direction, and then the direction the loop takes when there's a tail
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts