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Changing student's style

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Bernd Ziesche
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Changing student's style

#11

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:53 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Morsie wrote:I want people to learn all styles because they all have their applications, they are all just different ways of putting together the same principles and i want them to understand that.
Morsie
Completly agree :cool:
In my style demo's I emphasise that the majority of styles out there are born form a specific kind of fishing in a specific enviroment and that there are benefits from learning to throw in different styles that crosses over into other kinds of fishing.
Cheers
Lasse
Hey guys,
that's an interesting point. No doubt I agree with both of you here.

A while after I started teaching I joined an organisation of certified instructors for the first time. I soon was told that changing a student's style would not be a good idea at all because all styles are there for a good reason and I should always concentrate on teaching substance not style. Joining the second organisation of certified instructors I was told the same thing again.

Years later I looked back to all courses I have been a student in myself and compared with my own experience teaching others.

Personally I prefer the idea to teach my 6 essentials as substance (available in all styles).

But I also have joined very successful teachers teaching their own specific style to all their students (not allowing any different styles). I especially think that teaching a specific style to those fishing only a few days per year can be helpful to make the student concentrate on less different things.

Back to my own lessons I like to slightly change the student's style quite often. I want my students to learn to watch their back cast. Therefore I want them to use the open stance for the lesson cause it makes it comfortable to just turn the head back. Since I want them to focus at just one key element per time, I teach the open stance first and then move on to the next point to focus on.
Yes, in the end I want them to be able to adjust all 6 essentials to their target independent of the stance they may have to choose based on the fishing situation they will be in. So I also make sure they understand the difference in learning fly casting at the green and being in a fishing situation in between huge rocks for example.

As Morsie I like to offer a short overview about styles in the beginning. In the end I want the students to be open minded to learn different styles but being aware of the SAME key elements (6 essentials) in all styles.
To get the students through all key elements I prefer to teach them a specific style and not let them choose grip, stance and all possible ways of body movement on their own. So this means even though I teach them to focus on substance not style I use mainly one style during the lesson. I make changes if one does not feel comfortable with that style. It happened if people had injuries for example. In case we figure out which movements are possible and work best for the student...

Anyway teaching mainly one style during most of the lesson when learning the 6 essentials has worked best for me. That way it always seemed easier to make the student concentrate on one element per time.

Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Paul Arden
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Changing student's style

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:49 am

Hi Bernd,

instead of changing someone's style, I prefer to think of it as giving them an additional style/technique. To that end I find cloning a very powerful tool. ie I cast and the student mirrors my casting style exactly.

So I guess the next question is, what styles do you/we teach and are there any that we would like all students to have?

Cheers, Paul
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Mike Heritage
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Changing student's style

#13

Post by Mike Heritage » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:43 pm

Paul Arden wrote:

To that end I find cloning a very powerful tool. ie I cast and the student mirrors my casting style exactly.
I seem to remember not being able to move the next day after the second or third lesson I had with you.

Unless the students style is totally non something do-able with, which is a rare to non exsistant likelyhood, I just try to sort out the faults.
Unless they want to learn a style for a specific purpose.
A huge percentage of my clients have never given casting a thought and have no concept of what they are trying to achieve. Most don't even concider how important creating a loop is. Once I have explained what needs to happen and how to make it happen most modify their style without much help from me.

Mike
It's fly casting Jim, but not as we Know it.

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Djordje
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Changing student's style

#14

Post by Djordje » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:28 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Hi everyone,
let's imagine an average student wanting his/her casting skills to be improved in general as well as one or two serious problems being healed.
Would you change the student's style during a lesson or not?

Not


If yes, when and why?

...
If not, why not?

I will show and teach some other styles but final decision is from caster (student) what is the most comfortable


Thanks
Bernd
p.s.: Thanks Paul, for finally bringing up the TEACHING section, I appreciate!
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Bernd Ziesche
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Changing student's style

#15

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:15 pm

Paul Arden wrote:Hi Bernd,

instead of changing someone's style, I prefer to think of it as giving them an additional style/technique. To that end I find cloning a very powerful tool. ie I cast and the student mirrors my casting style exactly.

So I guess the next question is, what styles do you/we teach and are there any that we would like all students to have?

Cheers, Paul
Hi Paul,
the one style I want all students to have, is being able to integrate the 6 essentials I have tought them into whatever style the situation might force them into.
Often I ask students to try the indexfinger on top during a beginners lesson (for a while that is). This simply results in great back stops in no time mostly. But I also teach them about other grips and when to benefit with a change in grip, stance whatever.

I think style is the most over estimated term in fly casting.
But if we need a name for it then call it the "essentials style" or like Lasse sais the "all styles style".
If a student is religious about just one style (like Gebetsroither or TLT) then am maybe not the right teacher for him/her. OR maybe am exactly the one he/she finally should meet? Up to everyone him/herself. :p
Greets
Bernd
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Paul Arden
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Changing student's style

#16

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:48 am

One of the styles I teach is up-down casting foot forward accuracy stance. Jason's "foundation stroke", Joan Wulff style etc. I consider this to be a fundamental style that everyone should know.

Oval casting styles I don't consider so important but I do teach all different planes. For side casting I find finger on top more natural.

For distance I teach Rajeff/Morgan style as the foundation.

I'm still not sure what exactly "style" means incidentally. The closest I can come to is a "collection of substance" which seems to me very much like technique.

Cheers Paul
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Bernd Ziesche
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Changing student's style

#17

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:36 pm

Paul Arden wrote: I'm still not sure what exactly "style" means incidentally.
I don't either. :cool: Remembers me to my (long ago) skateboarding period. Skaters (in that period) used to discuss a lot about style. Most agreed that some have it and some never will have it. :p
I think style needs no words to be defined:
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Marc Fauvet
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Changing student's style

#18

Post by Marc Fauvet » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:27 pm

Paul Arden wrote: instead of changing someone's style, I prefer to think of it as giving them an additional style/technique.
that's one of the nicer approaches there is. the goal is to add to their (and our) repertoire and not remove, and since we all have our different ways and preferences it's something we all can do.

cheers,
marc

Morsie
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Changing student's style

#19

Post by Morsie » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:46 pm

I think the problem with style, and why its important to understand it and to touch on it in teaching, is that a lot of people think that they HAVE to cast a certain way. They may have picked this up from a book or from watching a video or even from an instructor, and rather than understand the principles of the cast they think that by imitating the style it'll all just going to happen for them, that the its the style that matters most. It of course is pretty easy to sort out but I hate to think of someone going through their fly fishing life believing that they have to cast a certain way. Its like believing you have to dress a certain way to be a fly fisherman. There's a lot of bullshit in this sport.

Morsie

John Waters
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Changing student's style

#20

Post by John Waters » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:43 am

I have a different view and differentiate technique from style. I explain technique from a biomechanical point of view i.e. the body movement required by the caster, whilst style is how the individual interprets and applies that technique. My view is that you instruct technique and analyse what impact an individual's style has on the the casts' technique fundamentals. If a segment of technique is missing or not sequenced correctly it will dramatically impact results, but two individuals with similar understanding and application of technique but visibly different styles may achieve similar results.
To illustrate take the finalists at any World Championship. Most of the casting final results in both accuracy and distance (usually 8 casters) are separated by less than 5% variation of the winning score or distance. Of that variation in result, discount the impact of weather conditions, the pressure (mental not barometric) and the difference reduces dramatically (my term). However, from the spectators' viewpoint the casters may look very different. I should note here that in my definition of style, I include an individual's psychological make-up with his/her physical attributes.

Does 99% of casting pupils care about my differentiation or terminology? I think not in the slightest. They are interested in outcomes and so they should be. They are the Customer.

This question is only an issue for Instructors/Coaches, but I like something I read somewhere that the pupils of a good Instructor should all look like they were coached by different Instructors. That is what I look for in an Instructor because it reflects his/her grasp of the technique and their ability to analyse and impact cause and effect for each individual. Of course I cannot dismiss the corollary that it may also reflect his/her inability to change anything for those pupils, and that's why they all look different.
A quick review of the relative casting results achieved by his/her pupils will easily identify which category the Instructor fits into. :D

I am working with two Instructors at the moment, one is a very experienced caster and one has never cast a flyline in his life. Amazing the similarities of approach of each with respect to teaching/coaching/instructing fly casting.

I like Morsie's comment and can only add that the only impact we have on loop shape, speed and direction or trajectory, is how we move the thick end of the rod backwards and forwards, pulling the line through the air and throwing it forward.

John

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