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Changing student's style

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Mac Brown
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Changing student's style

#21

Post by Mac Brown » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:00 am

Nice thread on style. The other aspect in teaching / guiding falls into the question of is it efficient or inefficient? If it falls into the latter then change it. I think we evaluate this within a few series of deliveries on the stream. Over the years guiding I think one of the biggest problems is a lack of line management to make the next delivery look effortless. The line storage system, the line control, etc... only can be attained through fishing... and fishing a ton. Lasse, I agree the only way this happens is by those knowing what to take from the lesson and practice on their own time.

I used to not think it possible that someone could pick up this sport and become highly accomplished in a season or two. I have been enjoying coaching many of the comp scene youth here in the states (along with many other guys) the past few years. We have 5 young men 16 years old and younger here in the states that are ranked in the top 10 in the nation. All from right here in NC and GA. The benefit for me doing this is that it turned me on to fishing lakes more than I would have ever imagined a few short years ago. I would have loved to have had these opportunities as a youth but I was from the school of fish a lot and hopefully learn from mistakes (which no doubt is the slow track way of learning). The bright side of this for me was to separate the rubbish from the necessary on-stream. So all this boils down to will (intent) of the students goals. Interesting to that once you expose folks to many styles, they will all come into their own over time.

Lots of great points on folks style as mentioned here but far too little of what they are likely to do on the stream. One of the easiest ways to teach it is ask them how much time they want their fly delivered versus being cast to and fro.... which 99.99% fall into the later. One day I am going to get over to fish with Morsie so I can see something very different from my comfort zone here. I think many of the stream tactics of efficiency will cross over for what ever cool fishes Morsie thinks will eat my fly.

I like the new board! :yeahhh:
Cheers, Mac
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Mac Brown

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Paul Arden
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Changing student's style

#22

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:28 am

I seem to remember not being able to move the next day after the second or third lesson I had with you.
I've been think about this a lot Mike! Can you elaborate? Did we do push-ups? :p

Cheers, Paul
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Snake Pliskin
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Changing student's style

#23

Post by Snake Pliskin » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:52 am

[quote="Mac Brown"]Over the years guiding I think one of the biggest problems is a lack of line management to make the next delivery look effortless. The line storage system, the line control, etc... only can be attained through fishing... and fishing a ton. Lasse, I agree the only way this happens is by those knowing what to take from the lesson and practice on their own time./quote]


This is what I struggle with the most when teaching. Obviously it varies, but sometimes it can be a fairly straight forward process to take people from casting very poorly, to not too shabby. In the past it was easy for me to stand back then, puff my chest out, and marvel at my good work. It's only when I'd witness the angler on the water struggling to even make a shot, that I realised the work that was left to do. With not guiding it was easy to forget about that stuff. If you fish your years, while it can always be refined, that on the water control becomes second nature. Teaching it to someone else is a different matter.
Obviously teaching on the water will help, but you can't always teach casting in a fishing situation. I'm trying to focus more on this stuff now, but could it be a case of offering a few tips and letting them get on with it.

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Changing student's style

#24

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:55 am

I'm not sure you can teach that - it's an additional awareness of where the rest of your line is. But I'd love to hear some tips! I'm guessing guides experience this problem constantly.

Cheers Paul
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Bernd Ziesche
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Changing student's style

#25

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:59 am

Paul Arden wrote:
I seem to remember not being able to move the next day after the second or third lesson I had with you.
I've been think about this a lot Mike! Can you elaborate? Did we do push-ups? :p
Hi Paul,
I've a feeling there was a campfire involved in that course maybe? :p :D
:D

Hi Peter,
great posting!

Hi Mac,
good point about line management. I think training beginners and advanced on the water the most often said term of mine is: "Keep the rod tip low (lower) (LOWER) (LOWER, PLEASE)" And that is all about essential one: proper line tension (no slack hanging of the tip in the horizontal position as it usually does).
Fishing, I even only see few experts who manage to be impressively good here. But as you said, the next delievery won't look as effortless as it could be...

But this is no different from teaching on the green:
"Keep the rod tip down, please." Most often repeated sentence of mine in all lessons for sure.

It is exactly here where most students have yet a huge step to go when moving from a first (ever) lesson on grass into the water. They forget about keeping the rod tip low, start with slack and immediately can't control anything anymore. After having given my first mixed workshops (casting on green first, then directly into chest deep coastal fishing), I soon realized that there is no space to overlook rod tips being more then 2 inch above the green after having layed down the line for whatever reason.

Greets
Bernd
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Paul Arden
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Changing student's style

#26

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:02 pm

I was thinking more line management between the stripping guide and the reel, Bernd. But I agree slack at the rod tip is a huge and common fault, but one that is easier to teach.
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Morsie
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Changing student's style

#27

Post by Morsie » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:31 am

In a full day session I'll take breaks from casting and fill those breaks with sessions on retrieves, striking, line management and how to apply pressure to a fish in different situations. All of this of course is without that key ingredient, the fish. There's nothing quite like going fishing to teach you how to fish but some small understanding of what to actually do to get the fish to eat the fly and what to do afterwards is appreciated. I have a full weekend coming up with about 20 students each day and its going to be held on a lake full of BIG carp that get up in the shallows and tail - so we should get to actually do the real thing!!! :yeahhh: :yeahhh: :yeahhh:

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Changing student's style

#28

Post by guest » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:40 am

Bernd Ziesche wrote: But this is no different from teaching on the green:
"Keep the rod tip down, please." Most often repeated sentence of mine in all lessons for sure.
I recognise me here :blush: The point about line control on moving water is well made and at the start of the season I always seem to be chasing the flow. The only cure for me is focused time on the water. However, add rising fish to the equation and it really goes to ratshit until I have a few to hand

regards

Vince
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Mac Brown
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Changing student's style

#29

Post by Mac Brown » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:17 pm

Paul,
I have to teach it first thing along with casting if I am guiding. We have had 22" of rain already in January, add to that 6000 feet of elevation from the mountain and we have common stream flows of up to 15 feet per second!

So if I neglect it, and we wade fish instead of drifting from a boat--it will look like a goat rodeo pretty quick. So, at these flows the only retrieve I use is to pull and store line from above rod hand and between the stripping eyelet. One retrieve, over 12 feet of line stored. Two retrieves, there is one big loop formed and 24 feet of line already stored. Over the years, I witness most people strip little short pulls of line that end up flowing down the stream or worse create many small loops which make it difficult to shoot back out without failing. The other benefit of using this type of retrieve is that there is no rod tip bounce. Without it, there is an ugly scene nymphing for line detection-hence it is smooth.

So many types of storage and retrieves depending on what environments we pursue. Storing line in a stripping basket, storage on boat decks, storage of shooting heads for river fishing. Even scenarios swinging flies as in salmon where we rarely shorten the line at all.

I think it sounds great Morsie throwing that all in a lesson during breaks from casting because it is an essential for being efficient. Maybe the reason it is among the most neglected with casting is in the vast differences in environments of fishes being pursued...
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Mike Heritage
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Changing student's style

#30

Post by Mike Heritage » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:32 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
I seem to remember not being able to move the next day after the second or third lesson I had with you.
I've been think about this a lot Mike! Can you elaborate? Did we do push-ups? :p

Cheers, Paul
No push-ups involved. It was one of my early shootouts. Jon and Pete knew what was coming and went home. I didn't and stayed :p I tried to mirror your distance casting for about a couple of hours. I learned my lesson. After that I went home when Jon and Pete did :laugh:

Mike
It's fly casting Jim, but not as we Know it.

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