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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
Moderators: Paul Arden, Bernd Ziesche, Lasse Karlsson
- Paul Arden
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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
Hi guys,
I find this really interesting since it is core of the teaching element. I think it’s a great idea. It doesn’t really fit with my life as an instructor. I teach complete beginners, then there is a level of caster who can’t double haul properly and doesnt know mechanics but has fished for 15 years and then there is Instructor level knocking on door candidate. And then there is CI teaching for advancement to MCI, which all apply to the MCI test.
To be an effective candidate for this test you really need to understand these different levels. Beginner is scratch or thereabouts. Advanced has passed CCI. Where is Intermediate? Potential CI candidate? I have two levels in the middle.
While going through this last night a suggestion was made - and I think it’s a good one - that these tasks should be more specific. Some Intermediates can Spey cast some CCIs can’t, for example.
I think it’s a great improvement to the MCI test.
So let’s hash it around a bit.
Thanks,
Paul
I find this really interesting since it is core of the teaching element. I think it’s a great idea. It doesn’t really fit with my life as an instructor. I teach complete beginners, then there is a level of caster who can’t double haul properly and doesnt know mechanics but has fished for 15 years and then there is Instructor level knocking on door candidate. And then there is CI teaching for advancement to MCI, which all apply to the MCI test.
To be an effective candidate for this test you really need to understand these different levels. Beginner is scratch or thereabouts. Advanced has passed CCI. Where is Intermediate? Potential CI candidate? I have two levels in the middle.
While going through this last night a suggestion was made - and I think it’s a good one - that these tasks should be more specific. Some Intermediates can Spey cast some CCIs can’t, for example.
I think it’s a great improvement to the MCI test.
So let’s hash it around a bit.
Thanks,
Paul
- Lasse Karlsson
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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
These are the definitions from the test, what exactly is it you want specified more?Definitions for the Teaching Tasks.
The following definitions are applicable to the teaching tasks.
Beginning student: able to perform basic loops, as in a pick-up and lay-down cast.
Intermediate student: has a basic understanding of casting mechanics, moderate loop control, can
single or double haul, shoot line, or cast in different planes, but requires additional instruction to
improve these skills.
Advanced Student: has the skill level of a successful CI candidate.
And when are you testing again?
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
- Paul Arden
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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
How far can he throw would be helpful!
And they never got back to me
Cheers, Paul
And they never got back to me
Cheers, Paul
Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
This is a question I've had from the start of my MCI journey. I've experienced it personally from both sides.
As a student, someone who was helping me with my studies for CCI had simply assumed I could roll cast well enough to pass my CCI because they've watched me throw MCI quality distance casts. In truth, I was not up to CCI standard until the day before my exam, when Brian Henderson gave me a lesson in roll casting. (I actually repeated his lesson during the exam when asked to teach the task. )
As an instructor, it's easy to make the same mistake with my students. I can speak to someone on the phone and find out they've been casting for 20 years. But then we start the lesson and I find they can't control their loop size.
The only way I've been able to determine the level a caster is at now is to watch them make the particular cast they want to learn. Skills from one cast are not necessarily transferred to other casts. The number of years someone has been casting is not an indication that they have mastered anything. Being able to cast a crab 80' does not mean that person knows how to place a mend at 25' or roll cast to 40'.
If I had the chance to modify the MCI exam format, I would change the teaching section to be goal based, so that the examiner shows a particular level of casting proficiency and the candidate is asked to take the "student" to the next level of proficiency for that skill. For example, "a student can cast to 65' now. Provide instruction on how he/she may reach 75' by adding a skill or knowledge, based on what the student currently does and can explain." (This would force the candidate to ascertain the level of skill and knowledge their student has already achieved rather than assuming it for that skill.)
That is how I teach now, and I assume most people here do something like it. When a student contacts me and asks me to teach them the double haul, I don't ask how long they've been fishing. I ask them to show me their current casts. Often, I need to take them back a few steps to build a foundation cast before we begin the lesson they wanted.
Cheers,
Graeme
As a student, someone who was helping me with my studies for CCI had simply assumed I could roll cast well enough to pass my CCI because they've watched me throw MCI quality distance casts. In truth, I was not up to CCI standard until the day before my exam, when Brian Henderson gave me a lesson in roll casting. (I actually repeated his lesson during the exam when asked to teach the task. )
As an instructor, it's easy to make the same mistake with my students. I can speak to someone on the phone and find out they've been casting for 20 years. But then we start the lesson and I find they can't control their loop size.
The only way I've been able to determine the level a caster is at now is to watch them make the particular cast they want to learn. Skills from one cast are not necessarily transferred to other casts. The number of years someone has been casting is not an indication that they have mastered anything. Being able to cast a crab 80' does not mean that person knows how to place a mend at 25' or roll cast to 40'.
If I had the chance to modify the MCI exam format, I would change the teaching section to be goal based, so that the examiner shows a particular level of casting proficiency and the candidate is asked to take the "student" to the next level of proficiency for that skill. For example, "a student can cast to 65' now. Provide instruction on how he/she may reach 75' by adding a skill or knowledge, based on what the student currently does and can explain." (This would force the candidate to ascertain the level of skill and knowledge their student has already achieved rather than assuming it for that skill.)
That is how I teach now, and I assume most people here do something like it. When a student contacts me and asks me to teach them the double haul, I don't ask how long they've been fishing. I ask them to show me their current casts. Often, I need to take them back a few steps to build a foundation cast before we begin the lesson they wanted.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
- Paul Arden
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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
Lots of good points there. You see I need more information . He (/she) can double haul and can cast in different planes. I bet he has a tracking error. Does he have closed and open stance or only know open stance (most likely). Probably can’t roll cast effectively but that’s a guess. Understand delayed rotation? Probably not. Does he have a vertical overhead closed stance accuracy shot? I don’t think so.
However he knows basic casting mechanics. Is that because we’ve just taught him those or has he already had a lesson... in which case that’s why he can double haul! But if he has had a lesson then maybe his tracking has been worked on. He can almost certainly roll cast - because what instructor wouldn’t teach him that? Maybe he can even jump roll cast and have some basic Spey casting skills.
So now we have two differnet students who fit this Interemdate description. One is a reasonable caster, self taught. And the other has had a lesson and will potentially have considerably more casting breadth.
Consequently if I make that assumption the Intesmediate caster is one of these then my lesson might have completely the wrong pitch because it turns out that the examiners have something else in mind.
Questions I always ask: have you have a lesson? How far can you cast? What do you want to learn? What is your fishing experience?
Cheers, Paul
However he knows basic casting mechanics. Is that because we’ve just taught him those or has he already had a lesson... in which case that’s why he can double haul! But if he has had a lesson then maybe his tracking has been worked on. He can almost certainly roll cast - because what instructor wouldn’t teach him that? Maybe he can even jump roll cast and have some basic Spey casting skills.
So now we have two differnet students who fit this Interemdate description. One is a reasonable caster, self taught. And the other has had a lesson and will potentially have considerably more casting breadth.
Consequently if I make that assumption the Intesmediate caster is one of these then my lesson might have completely the wrong pitch because it turns out that the examiners have something else in mind.
Questions I always ask: have you have a lesson? How far can you cast? What do you want to learn? What is your fishing experience?
Cheers, Paul
Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
In the exam, I believe I'll take the approach of being the one who defines the problem the caster is likely to have and deliver a solution for that problem.
For instance, the "advanced caster" who wants to complete the MCI distance cast task to 85' is already able to cast 75' but maybe with some difficulty. To cast 85' and make it look easy, they'll need to ensure tracking is good, loop orientation is consistent and their rotation/haul is very late in the stroke. After all, by definition, they can already reach 75', so all they need to do is make sure their loops are tight, front and back and gradually increase their distance while maintaining form.
I'll be the one who defines what each student can do already and what skills they must achieve to successfully complete their goal.
That's not what I'd do with a real student, but this isn't a real situation.
Cheers,
Graeme
For instance, the "advanced caster" who wants to complete the MCI distance cast task to 85' is already able to cast 75' but maybe with some difficulty. To cast 85' and make it look easy, they'll need to ensure tracking is good, loop orientation is consistent and their rotation/haul is very late in the stroke. After all, by definition, they can already reach 75', so all they need to do is make sure their loops are tight, front and back and gradually increase their distance while maintaining form.
I'll be the one who defines what each student can do already and what skills they must achieve to successfully complete their goal.
That's not what I'd do with a real student, but this isn't a real situation.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
- Paul Arden
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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
That’s definitely the way to do it Graeme. But it’s a total PITA because you might get some examiner who has a different idea as to what am Intermediate Level caster is and then he is going to overrule you. So it needs to be a little clearer to avoid candidate/examiner understanding.
I’m working with three guys at the moment, and some months ago I tried to profile these student levels. I even went as far to give them names. Ziggy has a moustache and was a professor at a university. (He’s the advanced student by the way).
He’s easy, beginner is easy, but Intermediate is a wide spectrum and it means different things to different people. Take the example above, if I have an Intermedite Level caster who is an accomplished angler but has never had a formal lesson, but might have read some basic mechanics in a book or the Internet (fits the profile and most of my students in fact), then this is going to be a different lesson to an Intermediate Level caster who has attended casting courses (who also fits the bill of being an Intermediate in this test).
I’m just giving a couple of examples here but I think there are more. Which is why it’s good to hash it around. “Know thy student”!!
Cheers, Paul
I’m working with three guys at the moment, and some months ago I tried to profile these student levels. I even went as far to give them names. Ziggy has a moustache and was a professor at a university. (He’s the advanced student by the way).
He’s easy, beginner is easy, but Intermediate is a wide spectrum and it means different things to different people. Take the example above, if I have an Intermedite Level caster who is an accomplished angler but has never had a formal lesson, but might have read some basic mechanics in a book or the Internet (fits the profile and most of my students in fact), then this is going to be a different lesson to an Intermediate Level caster who has attended casting courses (who also fits the bill of being an Intermediate in this test).
I’m just giving a couple of examples here but I think there are more. Which is why it’s good to hash it around. “Know thy student”!!
Cheers, Paul
Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
This could be true, but that examiner would then need to give me their own definition of where that particular student would be in the spectrum, perhaps by demonstrating a cast that needs improvement. I could deal with that quite happily. It might also have the observers discussing it too, which would be a good thing for the FFi as an organisation. They'd realise there might be a problem with the definitions put forward in the exam material.Paul Arden wrote:That’s definitely the way to do it Graeme. But it’s a total PITA because you might get some examiner who has a different idea as to what am Intermediate Level caster is and then he is going to overrule you. So it needs to be a little clearer to avoid candidate/examiner understanding.
I would think that any candidate who would pass the exam would be able to deal with an on-the-spot scenario such as this, but it would be much harder to standardise. Better for them to lay it out more definitively on a "per task" basis within the exam. By not doing that, I assume they want the candidate to define what each level of caster would require to improve in a given task.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
- Paul Arden
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Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
I’ve just thought of a third level of intermediate caster - someone training for CCI. Fits that description. Can double haul. Has a few issues. Knows some basic mechanics. Maybe he even takes CCI too early and falls.
When I think of “Intermediate” that’s actually what I think of... knocking on the door of CCI. When I first went through this test in KL I thought this is bloody good but it threw me because I couldn’t figure out how this worked - what I think of as Intermedate is so close to Advanced. So that’s when I started profiling the different levels.
So now we have three intermediates. Self taught never had a lesson, been on courses has some issues, and a training or even failed CCI candidate.
Now the problem is that you are being tested on how you teach beginners, Intermediates and Advanced and how you adapt the instruction specifically to each. But in this Intermedaite Level we don’t know who he is - it’s a broad spectrum. It needs more info to be as good as it can be.
Cheers, Paul
When I think of “Intermediate” that’s actually what I think of... knocking on the door of CCI. When I first went through this test in KL I thought this is bloody good but it threw me because I couldn’t figure out how this worked - what I think of as Intermedate is so close to Advanced. So that’s when I started profiling the different levels.
So now we have three intermediates. Self taught never had a lesson, been on courses has some issues, and a training or even failed CCI candidate.
Now the problem is that you are being tested on how you teach beginners, Intermediates and Advanced and how you adapt the instruction specifically to each. But in this Intermedaite Level we don’t know who he is - it’s a broad spectrum. It needs more info to be as good as it can be.
Cheers, Paul
Levels beginner intermediate and advanced MCI test
A few more for you then:
The second two are likely to have advanced skills in some aspects and beginner skills in others. They may or may not know how they achieve their results (i.e. they may not possess an "understanding of casting mechanics".)
The spectrum is large and we can really only come close to defining the end members (beginners and advanced.)
Cheers,
Graeme
- * The guy who has been taught by someone who isn't an instructor but knows how to cast.
* The guy who has been taught by someone who thinks he's an instructor but is most definitely not one.
* The guy who fishes salt all the time and is an excellent caster - when there are no impediments to casting nor concerns for drag-free drifts.
* The guy who fishes streams all the time and is an excellent caster - as long as he doesn't need to cast more than 50' and there is no wind.
The second two are likely to have advanced skills in some aspects and beginner skills in others. They may or may not know how they achieve their results (i.e. they may not possess an "understanding of casting mechanics".)
The spectrum is large and we can really only come close to defining the end members (beginners and advanced.)
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI