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Fixing low backcast trajectory

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jarmo
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Fixing low backcast trajectory

#1

Post by jarmo »

I want to pick your expert brains.

What are your favorite fixes for a low backcast trajectory?

This is not in the context of beginners, but casters developing a longer stroke. It is very natural to extend the stroke far behind, rotate late, and send the backcast low. The loops can look superb, and with the thumb on top grip, casting this way feels natural and smooth. With a long drag and late rotation, the rod has just already rotated too much before the final rotation begins.

One suggestion is the three point grip, which allows for an equally long drag with less "early rotation," so to speak. When the final rotation begins, rod angle is better. However, it is not always applicable.

So, what do you do?
Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#2

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

jarmo

Here is what I do for a longer carry, but beware... I may not be doing it "right" and I am not a competition distance caster.

I try to be conscious of sending the bc on an upward trajectory. To do so, on the pick up, I first raise the rod horizontally a bit, what was once called a shotgun lift. I look at the line in the air between my rod tip and the water... (does anyone call it point P anymore?)... and when the line describes the angle/trajectory that I want for my bc, I begin my stroke. I try to match my rod tip path to that angle the line showed me and keep it just below the line. When the rod butt gets to 12, instead of trying to rotate the rod back, I begin to raise my rod hand and push the rod butt up into the bend of the rod. Haul to match the stop. Instead of rotating down, the rod tip will climb even though rotation may continue into drift.

Like almost everything in casting, when done right it will feel right. You should see a nice, climbing bc with a well defined loop. And, again as usual, the closer the rod tip stops to the fly leg (which should be following the beginning angle/ trajectory), the tighter the loop will be.
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Graeme H
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#3

Post by Graeme H »

Aim higher.

Sort of simplistic, but how do you define a trajectory that's too low? What is the problem with the cast being low? Is it crashing into the water before it unrolls?

For a long forward cast, the back cast should finish quite low before initiating the forward cast, since you're aiming the forward cast high to get the distance you want. I normally aim my own back cast down a bit when going for my longest casts.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#4

Post by Paul Arden »

For me it’s about picking targets. If we are talking a more advanced level caster going for distance then he/she needs to pick the target before making the casting stroke. If the line is travelling low ask them to point out the target to you.

As Graeme says sometimes you intentionally want a lower backcast target, but not always. Anyway they should learn the skills to alter trajectories, which basically means picking a higher/lower target.

It might sound simple, but very few casters actually pick a target before their casting stroke. Most watch the line unroll, some watch the rod tip. These are two critical things; back target and forward target. If you watch the loop fully unroll then you’re not looking at your target for the next cast.

Those targets should be real physical things, way off miles in the distance. Tree tops, mountains, telegraph poles etc.

For short casts the target is there too of course - and it’s usually higher still, certainly above the horizontal - only we have to visualise it in our minds and not physically look at it.

Cheers, Paul
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Boisker
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#5

Post by Boisker »

Paul’s tip of picking the target really helped me, particularly when I was sorting out / tightening tracking for more ‘routine’ distances, I practiced a bog standard PUALD at a fairly routine distance as part of the skills challenge you posted... it’s easy to have fallen into the habit of not aiming high enough or perhaps more accurately for someone self-taught... never had the correct trajectory in the first place :D
jarmo
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#6

Post by jarmo »

Thanks for the responses, guys, much appreciated.

I will give "pick a target" a try and report back.

The basic issue here is, for me, the difference between the three point grip and thumb on top. In my mind, the three point grip is what I would call "a systemic solution" to the problem described above: a solution, once incorporated, fixes the issue once and for all, with no further attention needed. I think Jason Borger called the three point grip "a solution to your backcast problems," and I tend to agree.

So how does one pull (drag) equally well with thumb on top in the backcast?

I already had one idea for a systemic solution to pulling with thumb on top (constrain elbow movement), but I was thinking about this today, and may actually have found a solution where the grip is modified just a bit. (Lower base of support is not heel of hand but base of thumb.) At least when I tested it with the butt section of my rod some minutes ago, I could drag really well. The real test will have to wait for a couple of days.

And if someone thinks that I am overthinking or overcomplicating casting, my response to you is: absolutely! This one has cabin fever written all over.

I will provide a more detailed response to your messages above later this week. Now I have worked for way too long and need to disengage the computer.

Have fun!
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Graeme H
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#7

Post by Graeme H »

G'day Jarmo,

I made a video of my own cast a couple of years ago to help me analyse what actions I'm doing. It shows the solution I have for your question: switch the thumb position between front and back casts. You'll see it happen in the first few frames from this point in the video.



It may not be the best way to do things, but it works well enough for me.

(I've changed a few things since the video, but that switching of the thumb isn't one of them.)

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Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#8

Post by Paul Arden »

I’m not quite sure what level we are talking here, but let’s say 80’? (Can haul, reasonably straight, has decent loops)...

In this case I teach the backcast to have the palm facing down with the rod butt tucked into the forearm. This is such a improvement for everyone who learns it. It’s also great for reversing shoulders and delivering in the opposite direction.

My problem with three point grip in this case, is that I don’t think that the wrist is strong enough for a powerful backcast. It definitely helps stop the rod travelling further back and opening the loop or sending it low, which we often see. But I would look at the butt under forearm with palm down grip.

Another simpler option to look at is to lift the elbow (slightly) during the Casting Stroke. For Closed Stance in particular this will automatically send the loop higher (and tighter).

Cheers, Paul
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jarmo
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#9

Post by jarmo »

Hello Greame and Paul!

Let me try to interpret what you are saying and you tell me whether I got it right.

For a long drag backcast Graeme rotates the thumb, which I interpret to mean switching to a v-grip (or similar).

Paul teaches switching to a grip with palm facing down.

So both change the grip (from thumb on top). Both seem to tuck rod butt into forearm.
  • These are similar solutions. Right?
  • From what I can see they share something with the three point grip, because it is also a "palm down" grip. Right?
  • These grips constrain wrist rotation backwards, that is, effectively fix "breaking the wrist." Is this correct?
  • One difference to the three point grip is forearm support in the backcast. Correct?
When you teach beginners, which grip do you start with?

BTW: Great video, Graeme.
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James9118
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Re: Fixing low backcast trajectory

#10

Post by James9118 »

When I first go into competition distance casting I had issues with a low back cast trajectory when really opening up. The fix for me was to make the cast in a more vertical plane. My early fly fishing was done on overgrown rivers where a side-cast was essential for getting underneath the overhanging foliage. This side cast style then transferred perfectly to saltwater fishing and thus it is very much my default. When I got into competition distance I found I was firing off nice looking, but low, back casts. I believe this is because it is particularly easy to put the power in a downward direction with the cast canted.

To fix things (although it's something I'm always fighting) I concentrate on tracking the rod tip high and aim to throw the line right over the top of the tip. If someone is struggling with trajectory then I'd perhaps take a look (or better, film them) from a head-on position and then see if they're throwing the rod tip down due to the stroke's orientation.

James.
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