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Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

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Carol
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Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#1

Post by Carol » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:21 pm

So, my mentor posed a question to me that I've been pondering: What is the difference between creep and bad timing? But it also brings up for me the question of drag.

Creep, according to the FFI's CCI study guide, is rotation in the direction of the next cast during the pause. (Kreiger said it is the result of Type A's being impatient and not waiting.) Drag is translation in the direction of the next cast during the pause. So why is drag okay and creep not since they both result in a shortened arc? What is the difference in the shape of the loop between the two? From first hand experience, I know that creep results in tailing loops, but why doesn't drag? Could you drag and still end up with the appropriate size arc?

We know that bad timing is either insufficient or excessive pause before starting the forward cast. Too short of a pause on the back cast can result in the whip crack sound by causing the fly to change direction ultra fast; waay too short results in a heap of slack line that goes nowhere. Excessive pause results in gravity pulling the line down and you've lost some tension and introduced a steeper angle through which the line must be pulled in the next direction, requiring more force and resulting in a wide loop.

But isn't creep and drag also the result of bad timing? Or is there some nuance that makes each different?

Some say it's okay to be a drag, but not a creep. It's also okay to be a drifter but not a creeper.

Thanks, all!
Carol
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Carol
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#2

Post by Carol » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:29 pm

I'm replying to my own post as I think about it more. With bad timing, you could have an otherwise perfectly good stroke length and arc size; it's just that the timing is off. With creep, you are rotating the rod too early; with drag you are not. Still I don't know all the nuances of loop shape.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:57 pm

Hi Carol,

Ignoring the IFF definitions (!) Bill Gammel’s advice was to ask them to pause longer. If the creep gets worse then it’s creep. If he pauses and then creeps it’s bad timing.

Drag is a very poor definition with the IFF - as too is Creep IMO. Please see the definitions link in my signature below!

Thanks, Paul
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Carol
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#4

Post by Carol » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:28 am

Thanks, Paul. It's a much better definition. -Carol
Carol
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#5

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:50 am

No problems.

Incidentally when I first heard Bill’s answer I was very impressed. That sums up Creep I think and really gets to the nub of it. Not everyone understands it but then they have a different understanding of what Creep is. I’m with Bill in that it’s a psychological thing and since our job is to teach real people then we need to have some psychologist skills. :D

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Carol
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#6

Post by Carol » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:26 pm

I'd not heard Gammel's advice before. That's great! Thank you, thank you.

The discussion my mentor and I had was very Socratic in nature and quite long, but to sum it up far too briefly (like FFI does), Creep is unintentional; bad timing is intentional.

Creep is unintentional. It can result in a tailing loop from a shortened arc and punch afterward. But that, according to my mentor, is not what he typically sees. In the general population of students, he sees creep resulting in wide-to-open loops. In instructors and candidate who are trying to demonstrate creep, he sees the shortened arc and punch. Mel Kreiger demonstrates both in his Faults and Fixes video (which I've watched at least 20 times even though you can't fix your faults from watching a video).

Bad Timing is intentional, though misguided. The caster thinks it's the right thing to do, and the casting stroke, arc, force, etc. can otherwise be appropriate for the amount of line out of the rod tip. (However, you can have bad timing and other faults as well in a gordian-knot cast.)

I'm beginning to agree that FFI definitions are generalizations verbalized as succinctly as possible, lending themselves insufficiency. It's like only reading the chapter headings in a book and not reading the book.
Carol
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#7

Post by nicholasfmoore » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:33 pm

Hi Carol,

Welcome to the board! Are you enjoying yourself so far?

I too don't like the IFF definitions, the sexyloops ones are far superior (am i biased?)

Yes, Bills advice is excellent, great caster/teacher. I'm not a fan of drift with the IFF either, IMO the tip should track the line (so back AND up). Teaching drift? Mine is "imagine at the end of the back/up cast there is a 10kg weight on your fist, gently push this up a bit towards the sky" :) I think it should be reserved for advanced students, they need a very tight looped back cast before they attempt this technique as it will upset their casting.

Mel's faults and fixes DVD is very good, i have so much respect for him. Have you seen Paul's video masterclass?

Here is something for you, Carol :)

1. How would you personally fix a student that has bad creep?
2. How would you personally fix a student that has bad timing?

To be honest, IMO all casting faults can be circled back to an inappropriate application of force. But that's another topic :sorcerer:

Also, i think Bruce R defined the word 'drag' the scientific term is 'translation'. Didn't you tell me that about Bruce, Paul?

Drag doesn't/shouldn't give you a narrower arc (arc is the angle change of the rod during the stroke) creep reduces the angle during the stroke :) the IFF definitions are quite confusing.

Drag/translation alone can cause a tailing loop if no rotation is present at the end of the stroke.

Hope this helps?

All the best

Nick
Nick M

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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#8

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:33 am

Hi Carol,

I agree I fact I see Creep as a stand alone thing. Sort of anticipating the next cast and unaware the caster makes a small motion in that direction. It’s a very human fault. Caused completely by the mind and anticipation. So it doesn’t really result in anything. It can be built in to otherwise good casts. Fix creep and the result is a wide forward cast for example! But it can also result in tails. Or at least it’s not uncommon to see a tail after Creep. But you are also right, a wide loop can occur afterwards instead :D

Definitely intention is what separates Creep from anything else it might be. I see it purely as a fault. A similar question is how do you separate Creep from Forward Drift? :D Also of course this is based around intention/awareness.

The simple thing is to ask them to pause longer and see what happens. I like these little things because they keep it interesting for us too. As in “how can I make this worse!” :cool:

The term “Drag” goes back to around yr2000. One of our regulars - Herb Spannagl in NZ -wrote an article about “Slip” as in the “Slipping Clutch” and identified “delayed rotation” and was the first - or one of the first - to do so. I sent it to Bruce and he said he also had seen it and he called it “Drag”. Drag I felt a better term and so adopted it. Unfortunately the IFF then changed the meaning of Drag so it appears similar to Creep and could be construed as a fault :D (and not very useful for teaching, which is a shame because teaching Drag is very useful for advanced students learning distance casting or even just a good Roll Cast).

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#9

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:02 am

Incidentally it’s not a CCI question, it’s probably not a common MCI question. But it’s a bloody good one to think about :) If these sorts of questions were asked more then the IFF would almost certainly have a different set of definitions.

Talking of which there is one issue that I have with the SL set. In order that Drag lengthens casting stroke (so that you don’t end up in the strange situation where full blown distance casts with a step and late rotation aren’t defined to be shorter than accuracy casts with rotation throughout the stroke) we have had to separate Casting Stroke [Casting Arc package] from Overall Stroke [Stroke Length package]. This is the only solution, at least if you want to keep the 5E model. So in other words Casting Stroke is is a part of the Overall Stroke and contained within.

I spent I don’t know how many hours trying to come up with a different term for “Overall Stroke” or for that matter “Casting Stroke”. I know that Bill was unhappy with it too. We threw lots of terms around but they all seemed to have a conflict and/or could lead to other confusion.

I would really like terms that identify Casting Stroke package within Overall Stroke clearer in the mind. I wouldn’t change the model - it works. But if we could just tweak those terms then it might be clearer for people who haven’t spent hours and years arguing about these things :laugh:

Cheers, Paul
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Carol
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Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

#10

Post by Carol » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:19 pm

Thank you, everyone. My brain now hurts. I'll need some time to process it all. :D
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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