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## Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

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Paul Arden
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

You could take all the pictures I’ve made over the years and open a gallery.
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Carol
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

The Paul Arden [broken] Etch Sketch Gallery of Fly Casting.

In our Zoom meeting last night of CCI candidates, JW went through the Bruce Richards' powerpoint of casting mechanics, with the caveat early on that the FFI definitions were labored over for years. Finally, the leader said, essentially, "That's it. We're done. No more haggling. It's not perfect, but we're done." So that is why we find so many definitions wanting. That was followed later in the Zoom discussion by one participant (a scientist and teacher by trade) saying "The whole premise of the definitions is wrong because what is being called a loop is wrong. What we are looking at is a bight, not a loop, unless it's a closed tailing loop." At which time we said, in essence, the definition of a loop is so ingrained in the sport that it is accepted nomenclature. Get over it."
Anyhow, we discussed creep and drag at length. JW mentioned that when we are demonstrating task #2 (wide loop on command), we are using creep after the stop on the wide arc to re-position the rod so that we can make a narrower arc on the back cast, casting a narrow loop. So raising the rod tip from ___ to \\. That's a good example of creep we non-distance casters can relate to.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Carol wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:17 pm
That was followed later in the Zoom discussion by one participant (a scientist and teacher by trade) saying "The whole premise of the definitions is wrong because what is being called a loop is wrong. What we are looking at is a bight, not a loop, unless it's a closed tailing loop."
Hah! That makes me smile.

My father (the smartest man I ever met with only a highschool education) taught me that fly casting was all about "buckles and bights". What we all refer to as loop formation, in his terminology, was buckling the flyline; what we now call a loop he called a bight. BTW... bight is the correct terminology for that shape if you are talking about knots and rope-work to a sailor.

I have no idea how or when my father learned to fly cast. I assume it was in the 50s or maybe earlier. And I do not know if those were his terms or if he learned them from somewhere else. I do know that the terms made sense to me, even as a child - something that does not seem to be the case when trying to teach someone to fly cast and calling it a loop!

Sorry I missed the Zoom... I was hoping to catch it.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

Paul Arden
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Well that wouldn’t be Creep with SL Definitions, unless it was done unawares. If it’s done purposefully it is Drift (we don’t specify a direction to Drift).

Bill also uses “forward Drift” in this article https://www.sexyloops.com/articles/adju ... efly.shtml

Sexybights doesn’t have the same ring to it.

Cheers, Paul
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Flycasting Definitions

Carol
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

It is rotation in the direction of the NEXT cast while the loop is unrolling, so you can't really call it drift. The difference is that it is intentional. So it would seem that none of the definitions fit really well. Let's come up with a new one!
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

Lasse Karlsson
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Carol wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:17 pm
The Paul Arden [broken] Etch Sketch Gallery of Fly Casting.

In our Zoom meeting last night of CCI candidates, JW went through the Bruce Richards' powerpoint of casting mechanics, with the caveat early on that the FFI definitions were labored over for years. Finally, the leader said, essentially, "That's it. We're done. No more haggling. It's not perfect, but we're done." So that is why we find so many definitions wanting.
Interesting take on it, and not really what I voted on twice as a CBoG
Nevermind, water under the bridge, and since they come with the cavat that they are solely for discussions between instructors, and can and probably should be changed when talking to a student, use the SL ones, they at least work

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Lasse Karlsson
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Carol wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:53 pm
It is rotation in the direction of the NEXT cast while the loop is unrolling, so you can't really call it drift. The difference is that it is intentional. So it would seem that none of the definitions fit really well. Let's come up with a new one!
Drift is repositioning of the rod, direction isn't in there

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Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

Paul Arden
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Drift - to reposition the rod between casting strokes. I certainly can call it Drift!

And we have been calling it Drift for decades!

I know it’s hard to not mix definitions but the structure is different. SL has 3-dimensional rod repositioning (Drift), line repositioning (Sweep) and Casting Stroke separated by purpose/intent.

IFF has 2-dimensional rotation and translation pre, during and after the Casting Stroke separated by a rate of acceleration sufficient to cause a loop.

SL definitions are qualitative. IFF are quantitative.

A simple question would be what is the rate of acceleration sufficient to cause a loop? That was originally my idea of how to separate [Forward] Drift (or Creep, if it’s unintentional) from Casting Stroke. It’s unfortunate that the IFF ultimately ran with it and didn’t wait a few more months for us to solve the problem

Cheers, Paul
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Flycasting Definitions

Lasse Karlsson
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### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:05 pm

A simple question would be what is the rate of acceleration sufficient to cause a loop? That was originally my idea of how to separate [Forward] Drift (or Creep, if it’s unintentional) from Casting Stroke. It’s unfortunate that the IFF ultimately ran with it and didn’t wait a few more months for us to solve the problem

Cheers, Paul
They did wait several months, years actually, still didn't adopt what was working

Cheers
Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

Carol
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Location: Summit County, Colorado

### Re: Differentiating Creep versus Bad Timing

Hmm. I've printed SL's Flycasting Model an Introduction to the Definitions, and the definitions themselves, and will study them top to bottom using a highlighter and making notes. It will be enlightening.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.