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Loop shape is domed and tails

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Carol
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Loop shape is domed and tails

#1

Post by Carol » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:55 pm

I'm seeing a loop shape is somewhat domed and then it tails. (See attached crappy drawing -- the doming isn't that exaggerated in the cast.) What I'm suspecting is that the cast is not started strongly and to compensate (or for whatever reason), the rotation during the stop is over powered. What are exercises to get more power/strength into the start of the casting stroke if using the western style aka Joan Wulff?

Thanks in advance for your advice.
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Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

nicholasfmoore
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#2

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:24 pm

I think a good one is from the Mel K video you mentioned you watched "start the stroke heavy, start it strong! If the forward cast is a problem, and they are casting for distance then I'd recommend teaching them the Jump roll. Force application is pretty similar to distance casting.

All the best
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Hmmff. That’s not art.

Alright well I’d get rid of the domed first. That’s a power application issue - obviously, since they all are.

For the tail, first we have to eliminate the possibility that it’s your leader. With you I’m sure it’s not but it’s always the first port of call.

Then it may or may not be trajectory, but the doming has to go first... and then who knows what we will find? :D

Now if we are going to look at art, then my very exciting drag drawing should fix the dome :) 😷

Cheers, Paul

(Who’s about to crank up the Ark)
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#4

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:05 pm

I'd start with eliminating slack in the previous cast, it looks like what slowly (sometimes very fast) happens in the spiral of death, where one starts a little bit to soon, and the tiny amount of slack carries over into the next cast and next and gets worse and....

And I'd go with Paul's crappy drag drawing to sort most of it out, and remember to wait a fraction longer between casts.

\\\\|/

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Lasse
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Carol
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#5

Post by Carol » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:35 pm

Thanks guys!
I'd like to pick your brain about dealing with the slack. There seems to be a discrepancy in things I've heard over time, so before I start teaching someone to fix a cast, I'd better get clarity on it. Here are the discrepancies: Some say wait until the line has completely unrolled before starting the next cast. Others say wait until the line is in the shape of a "J" before starting the forward cast because of the delay between when your brain registers it and you start forward cast. By the time your brain registers it, the line will have unrolled completely. Some say wait until you feel the tug on the tip top of the rod because that tells you the line has unrolled completely and there is tension on the line. Others say that the tug is simply the tip top at SLP2 aka rebound. What's your take?
Now here's another problem. If the student waits a tad too long before starting the next cast, then the line falls too much and the angle of the line going into the next cast is steeper. Doesn't that lead to a greater tendency to crash the fly into the rod or, if it doesn't crash, lend itself to an open loop?
Thanks for the insights.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#6

Post by Geenomad » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:40 am

Hi Carol
Can I ask you whether the issue is being pursued primarily to improve your own casting, and/or for casting instruction purposes and/or for a general understanding of casting mechanics (physics)?

It matters because my take on some of these things does not come from a distance casting field of view and I don't want to create either confusion or argument. :)

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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Carol
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#7

Post by Carol » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:49 pm

Hey, Mark, thank you. The answer is ALL of the above. Whatever problems I have, I see, have seen, or will see in others. So whatever problems I can solve will help everyone, including me. I do not do distance casting, although understanding it can only be helpful, if not wistful.

Hope your part of the world is not too COVIDy and that the Australians have learned from the stupid Americans.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#8

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:15 pm

Carol wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:35 pm
Thanks guys!
I'd like to pick your brain about dealing with the slack. There seems to be a discrepancy in things I've heard over time, so before I start teaching someone to fix a cast, I'd better get clarity on it. Here are the discrepancies: Some say wait until the line has completely unrolled before starting the next cast. Others say wait until the line is in the shape of a "J" before starting the forward cast because of the delay between when your brain registers it and you start forward cast. By the time your brain registers it, the line will have unrolled completely. Some say wait until you feel the tug on the tip top of the rod because that tells you the line has unrolled completely and there is tension on the line. Others say that the tug is simply the tip top at SLP2 aka rebound. What's your take?
Now here's another problem. If the student waits a tad too long before starting the next cast, then the line falls too much and the angle of the line going into the next cast is steeper. Doesn't that lead to a greater tendency to crash the fly into the rod or, if it doesn't crash, lend itself to an open loop?
Thanks for the insights.
Hi Carol,

I think it depends on the student. You could say a certain thing to one and it would be beneficial, but if you say the identical thing to a different student, it could be catastrophic :upside:

Here is my take on it, as long as the leader doesn't create a mini sonic boom/snap, you are ok. If you wait fractionally too long you can end up getting sag which is a real pain in the a** especially for distance. I wait until the leader has straightened, I think Paul does too? If you are getting sag, then you have to start the next stroke a tiny bit earlier, not so early to make a sonic boom, its very subtle.

Don't know if anyone else agrees?

I have no idea idea who first started
Some say wait until you feel the tug on the tip top of the rod....
but I think this is such a poor piece of advice IMO. I think Paul agrees with this too, but his thoughts may have changed :) The problem is that you would be starting the forward cast with a bent rod which is very awkward, the tug is flexing the rod backwards.
If the student waits a tad too long before starting the next cast, then the line falls too much and the angle of the line going into the next cast is steeper. Doesn't that lead to a greater tendency to crash the fly into the rod or, if it doesn't crash, lend itself to an open loop?
Great question, yes and yes depending on the trajectory of the forward cast. IMO it's quite rare that a students waits far too long, it's usually too quick. :) I used to do this for pile casts, I'd cast, wait for the line to drop and then aim the forward cast up. Nowadays I just use a Belgian cast, its quicker for fishing. :)

All the best

Hope this helps?
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

Geenomad
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#9

Post by Geenomad » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:50 am

Carol wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:55 pm
I'm seeing a loop shape is somewhat domed and then it tails. (See attached crappy drawing -- the doming isn't that exaggerated in the cast.) What I'm suspecting is that the cast is not started strongly and to compensate (or for whatever reason), the rotation during the stop is over powered. What are exercises to get more power/strength into the start of the casting stroke if using the western style aka Joan Wulff?
Hi Carol
First off I agree with a lot what others have said about power application being central and about slack (tension loss) being a usual suspect. Second what I'm about to say is focussed on overhead casting and fly casting for fly fishing. Qualification. A lot of it applies to other types of casting and to competition as well as fishing casts but the former is not my focus.

Thirdly, I'd like to put tails to one side because we know what usually causes them which is a power spike which creates a transverse wave which travels down the rod leg and is still going as the fly leg is formed and then there's also a tracking error and then you a have a collision and blahdy blah. Yep, power application problem. Yep often caused by trying to compensate for something else.

Now, I'm the kind of person who asks questions to get to the causal and conception foundations of things. Not everyone's cup of tea but here goes... a bit. Not suggesting you don't already know a lot of this stuff just putting it together in a package with a label. :)

What Does A Power Application Problem Really Mean?
For a lot of people it seems to mean something on a list of casting faults and when all the items have a tick instead of a cross your technique is perfect.

For me it means that I have made an inefficient cast. An efficient cast is about using the minimum effort needed to execute the cast. From the perspective of mechanics (physics) that means optimising net Force in the intended direction of the cast and minimising force losses caused by force applied in some other direction(s). What is not well understood imho are the full implications of F=ma, net Force in particular, and just how little effort is needed to make an efficient cast. The consequence of inefficient force application is less force going where we want it and since little force (effort) is actually needed losses are extremely expensive. Force thieves are making off with the crown jewels rather than pinching a few scraps off the table.

Against Our Nature
We all have the ability to throw things, human beings uniquely can throw things hard and accurately. Then there's the bad news for fly casting which is that we instinctively throw things harder to make them go further. Trying to make up for inefficiency in fly casting we exert more effort which counterintuitively creates more inefficiency. Got a lack of feel due to tension loss? Throw harder. Got a lack of distance due to tracking errors or over rotation or early and over rotation? Throw harder.

Loop Shapes and Windscreen Wipers
The majority of casters I see out on the water are throwing fat loops and not going too far despite using vast amounts of effort. They are heaving instead of stroking. Loop shape tells the observer how efficiently force has been applied. Force is most efficiently applied in a straight line. Windscreen wiper strokes are applying force all over the joint and relatively little is going in the intended direction of the cast. Yep, we can't cast in perfectly straight lines but the straighter we are the straighter the cast, the further it goes and blahdy blah.

Narrow loops say well done. Fat loops say fail. Fatter or doomed loops, made unintentionally, say good work but could do better. Of course there are circumstances where I want a fatter loop eg multi fly casts, dodgy wind conditions, specialty delivery casts etc. Those are intentional. The trick is to be able turn them on and off at will.

Solutions
I have spent several years on efficiency instead of oomph and anyone who suggests going stronger at the start or performing a power snap or hitting it after the rod butt passes the perpendicular or whatever is inviting me to regress. Taking it easy, all the way, back and forward is more than enough to produce really long casts that land the fly or flies on the spot. Taking it easy might mean using a longer stroke to cover the same distance more easily. No shame in that. Taking it easy is the gift that keeps on giving.

I have found that it is more helpful to divide casting distances into short, medium and long for each caster rather than demonstrate how far a seriously good caster can throw a fly, accurately. For me, the medium distance is where I work when something needs refinement - think any of the items on the list and anything new I want to add to the bag of tricks. Medium distance is where taking it easy can be refined before distance is increased.

FWIW I have found it helpful most recently to incorporate aspects of the TLT lancio angulato into "normal' overhead casting. It shows you what movements help and hinder narrow loops and how little effort can produce serious fishing distance.

My tag line is a reflection of this philosophy to reduce waste instead of finding safer ways to increase effort. My website documents quite a bit of this pilgrim's progress and provides a reasonably assessable account of casting mechanics. The next blog post will be about finding another level of effort reduction.

HTH.

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

Geenomad
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Re: Loop shape is domed and tails

#10

Post by Geenomad » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:36 pm

Carol wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:49 pm
Hope your part of the world is not too COVIDy and that the Australians have learned from the stupid Americans.
Hi Carol
Intended to reply to this bit first and had the pony ready to go but it has disappeared. Bit going on at the homestead and I must have left the gate open. :)

What I wrote went something like this.....

At some point down the track someone will develop a ten point scale on which to score the national and leadership responses to COVID-19. Oz is a federation like the USA so the states have their hands on some of the levers - health, schools, police etc. At present I'd rate the feds at 7 and my own state at 8.

It's too serious a situation to be making political snipes or jokes about leadership in the US. I have friends there and in Canada.

OTOH if we are looking for an exemplar it's pretty hard to go past NZ and Jacinda Ardern. Got friends there too and they laugh at me when I suggest a trade with our "prime" minister. :(

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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