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The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

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John Waters
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#21

Post by John Waters » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:01 pm

Whoops, it has appeared above, the cosmos is indeed a magic place.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#22

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:59 am

I guess it’s all part of the learning process. So here’s a question Graeme, since we are discussing carry. If you were to ask Chris to double the amount of line he was carrying what changes would he have to make?
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#23

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:50 am

Hi Graeme

I would love to see a clip of the loop collapsing after it appears, because you throw the rod forward 🙂

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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#24

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:38 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:50 am
Hi Graeme

I would love to see a clip of the loop collapsing after it appears, because you throw the rod forward 🙂

Cheers
Lasse
I tried to video that during the week but was not successful because I've lost my nice dark background location. :( I'll get a video when I can.
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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#25

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:59 am
I guess it’s all part of the learning process. So here’s a question Graeme, since we are discussing carry. If you were to ask Chris to double the amount of line he was carrying what changes would he have to make?
Increase translation, increase haul distance and speed, increase casting arc, lengthen pause and increase rod rotation speed. And maybe even get a longer line because he looks like he's carrying 50' already ...

In terms of what he needs to do differently after loop formation: not much. He would be increasing the tension in the rod leg from the other end due to the fly leg speed, so the only significant change is to lift the tip for a longer duration. At least, that's what I do. I assume he'd be doing the same.

This is about doing things after loop formation to increase or maintain the tension in the rod leg. The caster's actions before loop formation are separated from this in the same way that forming a mend is separated from the cast. So carrying more line means more line speed and control over its direction.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#26

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:00 am

Graeme H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:38 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:50 am
Hi Graeme

I would love to see a clip of the loop collapsing after it appears, because you throw the rod forward 🙂

Cheers
Lasse
I tried to video that during the week but was not successful because I've lost my nice dark background location. :( I'll get a video when I can.
Thats a shame, hope you find another place to use, I know how it feels when that happens, luckily mine came back to me after a few years.

I'm intriqued that the loop should fail, so look forward to your clip! Ages ago we had a similar debate here, and I tried just dropping the rod during the stroke, the only time it didnt unfurl was when there clearly hadn't been a large enough acceleration of the line to begin with :)

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Lasse
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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#27

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:08 am

John Waters wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:59 pm
Let me try and explain my thoughts about casting arcs and their impact.
Thanks for that explanation John.

Matty was not shooting line during this demonstration until the final cast. He was also not trying to get anything like his maximum distance - I only asked him to make a few false casts carrying about 70'-80' of line so I could study his action.

Matty also freely admits he has a very compact style and relies on his strength rather than extension. We discussed it at the time and he said he might try for a longer translation (what I think you are calling forearm stroke) but he was not concerned about getting more out of his cast. Nor should he be, since he is already casting as far as he needs to in any imaginable circumstance.
The differences in the elbow shown here are also far more suitable to using the torso than in the shorter, more limited stroke. He does not have to do anything to increase tension, the speed he has generated in the loop does that without pre or post loop formation tip lift.
He seems to be close to maxed out carrying the same sort of distance. Matty and Christopher are carrying similar line with more efficient style, and neither of them are even approaching their maximum effort, so I don't think the comparison of videos is a valid one.

(NB: the fly is passing Magnus at about head height on the three final forward casts. That's not a problem, it's just a function of Berndt's dangly bits. If you are going worry about Matty's back cast, you should also worry about Magnus' forward cast.)

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Graeme
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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#28

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:24 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:00 am
I'm intriqued that the loop should fail, so look forward to your clip! Ages ago we had a similar debate here, and I tried just dropping the rod during the stroke, the only time it didnt unfurl was when there clearly hadn't been a large enough acceleration of the line to begin with :)

Cheers
Lasse
True, if we overpower the cast so that there is excessive line speed, the tension produced by the fly leg will reinstate the lost tension in the rod leg. It's why I said that if the cast is controlled in such a way that the power is appropriate for the cast, this effect is visible. (By "excessive line speed" I mean putting enough velocity into the line to reach 80' if the target is only 50' away.)

Dropping the rod is not enough. Dropping the rod only lowers the rod tip to the ground, it doesn't rush it forward. You need to move the tip forward so quickly that the fly leg cannot keep up and tighten the rod leg again. The aim is to remove all tension in the rod leg, not just some of it.

I will try hard to get a video this weekend, but this one is such an easy experiment to repeat that anyone with tip control can do it. Get a nice steady rhythm going, make slow casts that just unfurl and on any one of them, take a step or two forward after loop formation and rapidly push the rod tip forward in the direction of the rod leg at the same time.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#29

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:59 am

Graeme H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:08 am

He seems to be close to maxed out carrying the same sort of distance. Matty and Christopher are carrying similar line with more efficient style, and neither of them are even approaching their maximum effort, so I don't think the comparison of videos is a valid one.

(NB: the fly is passing Magnus at about head height on the three final forward casts. That's not a problem, it's just a function of Berndt's dangly bits. If you are going worry about Matty's back cast, you should also worry about Magnus' forward cast.)

Cheers,
Graeme
Hi Graeme and John

This is a bit weird, as I know all three casters...

Magnus is carrying about 20 feet more than Matty is, and probably at least double of what Chris is in that clip. Also all three have different agendas in their clips, making comparisons invalid.

And please, efficient style? :D

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Lasse
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#30

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:01 am

Graeme H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:24 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:00 am
I'm intriqued that the loop should fail, so look forward to your clip! Ages ago we had a similar debate here, and I tried just dropping the rod during the stroke, the only time it didnt unfurl was when there clearly hadn't been a large enough acceleration of the line to begin with :)

Cheers
Lasse
True, if we overpower the cast so that there is excessive line speed, the tension produced by the fly leg will reinstate the lost tension in the rod leg. It's why I said that if the cast is controlled in such a way that the power is appropriate for the cast, this effect is visible. (By "excessive line speed" I mean putting enough velocity into the line to reach 80' if the target is only 50' away.)

Dropping the rod is not enough. Dropping the rod only lowers the rod tip to the ground, it doesn't rush it forward. You need to move the tip forward so quickly that the fly leg cannot keep up and tighten the rod leg again. The aim is to remove all tension in the rod leg, not just some of it.

I will try hard to get a video this weekend, but this one is such an easy experiment to repeat that anyone with tip control can do it. Get a nice steady rhythm going, make slow casts that just unfurl and on any one of them, take a step or two forward after loop formation and rapidly push the rod tip forward in the direction of the rod leg at the same time.

Cheers,
Graeme
Will try, but I'm the dude that gets lines to unroll when they aren't attached anymore, and if my 50 footers have enough umpfh to reach 80, I will be extremely surpriced!

Cheers
Lasse
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