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## The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Moderators: Paul Arden, Bernd Ziesche, Lasse Karlsson

Paul Arden
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Hi Graeme,

What I had envisaged with this experiment is to run forwards just prior to loop straight not at loop formation. There is obviously tension resulting from the drag forces on the (detached) rod leg at one end, and because you can’t push a string it makes it very difficult eliminate.

Hi Gary, I know what you mean and I’m going to have to analyse that cast more closely. It’s a cast I use - it is actually a transverse wave! And in this case I agree, removing the tension will cause it to collapse.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Thanks for your video Graeme, I saw the dolphin nose on the short line cast. I suspect it is sourced to loop speed or lack thereof because it does not happen with a faster moving line. The videoed cast has very slow moving line forward and backward, the trajectory separated by greater than 180 degrees and has a very high angle rod straight position (angle of the rod from the horizontal) on the forward cast. When I cast such a line length and speed the line movement up and ensure the trajectories are separated by 180 degrees and move the RSP to a lower angle on the forward cast there is no dolphin nose.
So my very basic, comparative, unscientific basis would indicate to me one or more of those factors have caused the dolphin nose.
When I get them on my long carry, light line distance cast, it coincides with slower moving loop.

John

Paul Arden
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

I think the dolphin nose happens when the tightness of the nose of the loop is close to the natural bend stiffness of the line. That means that the nose has to be very tight indeed. As in like a couple of inches. But it’s an interesting puzzle. But not quite as interesting as Gourami eating termites. See you later!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Graeme H
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

John Waters wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:57 am
Thanks for your video Graeme, I saw the dolphin nose on the short line cast. I suspect it is sourced to loop speed or lack thereof because it does not happen with a faster moving line. ...
I can force them into most casts if I want when I do certain things with the rod tip. Not the widest loops though.

In fact, I now have trouble preventing them!

Is this loop slow enough? It's even going backwards!

Alas, since we won't be considering loops as waves, I'll sit on the why I think they are forming.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Lasse Karlsson
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Graeme H wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:36 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:43 pm
Just thinking about Graeme's claims. instead of throwing the rod forawrd and taking a couple of steps, it's much easier to just use a shootinghead, and thin mono shootingline, and let go, tension should drop even more that way.

Cheers
Lasse
Lasse, cutting the tether is not instantaneous because that mono still needs to travel through the guides before all tension is gone. If you're not cutting it, there is still tension in the thin mono running line (friction in the guides) and it can't be monitored visually in the way I've shown it in the video above.

There is something pulling on the rod tip at the 7 second mark of your video - is that the knot in the mono leaving the rod?

Cheers,
Graeme
Hi Graeme

Most likely the end of the mono, there was no knot, I just added 9 feet of thin monofilament nylon to a shootinghead for that clip.

I can get it to fail like in your video if I aim higher, and cut back on the force, just like it looks you do in the clip. I can't get it to fail handcasting a MPR line, and letting it go at loop formation. Back end falls from my fingers almost straight down, and the line still unrolls.

And happy to call the dolphin nose a wave, just like the tailing loop comes from a transverse wave, and mends are. Not convinced that the loop front is a wave though...

Cheers
Lasse
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John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Thanks Graeme, I’m the opposite to you. I get them rarely. It is interesting to me that you generate them with a truncated stroke or high RSP angle, whereas on your other videos without DN, that angle is less. I get them when I use a truncated stroke on a maximum carry but not on the same carry with a non stop stroke.
May be completely irrelevant but I’ll do some more experimentation .

John

Graeme H
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Lasse wrote:And happy to call the dolphin nose a wave, just like the tailing loop comes from a transverse wave, and mends are. Not convinced that the loop front is a wave though..
Yep, I get that Lasse. It's the only bend that travels along the line we can't call a wave, even though it can sit between a tail and a mend and travel at the same speed along the line as both of them at the same time.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

Graeme H
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

John Waters wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:29 pm
It is interesting to me that you generate them with a truncated stroke or high RSP angle, whereas on your other videos without DN, that angle is less. I get them when I use a truncated stroke on a maximum carry but not on the same carry with a non stop stroke.
May be completely irrelevant but I’ll do some more experimentation .

John
You're on the right track John. The angle the rod tip makes with the line at loop formation combined with the suddenness of the stop are important.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

Paul Arden
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Stopless/170 a few years back in Norway.
Attachments
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Paul Arden
Posts: 14265
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

The DN occurs after the loop has morphed into a tight pointed loop. It’s certainly not there at loop formation.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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