Maximum Rod Bend

[Lou Bruno]

When teaching hauling we usually mention the two major benefits of hauling...increase bend and increase line speed. While casting, How do we know if our fly rod is at its maximum bend for the line being used...my main point of interest.

Are there visual clues, can we tell by our loop shape, can we change our line to help achieve greater rod bend, why increase rod bend, is there a direct relationship between rod bend and line speed?

These are some of the secondary thoughts, don't expect answers, merely thought provocing.
Lou

[Lou Bruno]

I thought I was done thinking about maximum rod bend, this is it!...is there a direct relationship between rod plane (casing plane) and maximum Rod bend?
Lou

[Lou Bruno]

When teaching hauling we usually mention the two major benefits of hauling...increase bend and increase line speed. While casting, How do we know if our fly rod is at its maximum bend for the line being used...my main point of interest.

Are there visual clues, can we tell by our loop shape, can we change our line to help achieve greater rod bend, why increase rod bend, is there a direct relationship between rod bend and line speed?

These are some of the secondary thoughts, don't expect answers, merely thought provoking (spelling!)
Lou

[Lasse Karlsson]

Please, hauling does not bend the rod further, if it does you're hauling at the wrong tine and highly inefficient!
Hauling increases linespeed, and slows down the unbending of the rod. And why do you want maximum rod bend? It has little to do with the line used, and alot to do with the one bending the rod, ie. the caster!
Maximum rod bend is just before rod failure

Happy new year

Cheers
Lasse

[Lou Bruno]

Ladder
This is why I appreciate SL. Hauling does not bend the rod further!
Interesting, first time hearing this.
Lou

[Merlin]

Please, hauling does not bend the rod further, if it does you're hauling at the wrong time.
Hauling increases linespeed, and slows down the unbending of the rod.

Hauling reduced the mass of line pulled by rod tip and increaseses line speed, so there is a change in line momentum with time and consequently a force is created at rod tip (Newton). Depending on haul timing this force can add some bend and / or delay unbending.

When teaching hauling we usually mention the two major benefits of hauling...increase bend and increase line speed. While casting, How do we know if our fly rod is at its maximum bend for the line being used...my main point of interest.
Are there visual clues, can we tell by our loop shape, can we change our line to help achieve greater rod bend, why increase rod bend, is there a direct relationship between rod bend and line speed?

There is little visible sign of the effect of the extra force created by the haul, the rod being already bent. The difficulty is in the right timing of the haul; it seems that peak haul speed should take place around MCL, which occurs in between MAV and RSP. Unfortunately, there is no clue to ensure that and only training can help.

If you aim for maximum rod bend from the haul then you are hauling too soon. You will get speed anyway but the tip trajectory is at risk (dip, then tail). It is better to tune the haul so that it delays rod bend. Using a heavier line is of little help, since it slows down the system and rod response. Aim for (late) haul speed, not rod bend, which is inevitable.

This is why I appreciate SL.

Me too, I think I explained that a number of times, but this is the first time in 2021.

Merlin

[Lou Bruno]

Merlin
Thanks! After reading Lasses answer I was about to do a search to read up on the topic.

So many books and instructors, including me, teach the opposite.
Again thanks for the enlightenment.

Lasse, sorry for the misspelling of your name. I think the spelling auto correct thought better.
Lou

[Lasse Karlsson]

Merlin
Thanks! After reading Lasses answer I was about to do a search to read up on the topic.

So many books and instructors, including me, teach the opposite.
Again thanks for the enlightenment.

Lasse, sorry for the misspelling of your name. I think the spelling auto correct thought better.
Lou

First time ever to be called a ladder
It's true there is a first time for everything

Far too many books and instructors teach stuff which belongs in a magic class rather than real life Don't worry about that, just learn when it's outside the practical realm and if it helps students, use it, but tell them it's not true afterwards. Alot of teaching tricks gets misused because it's not revealed to the student that it's not true (and mostly the instructor believes it's true too, sadly...) Most used is the "let the rod do the work" trope, like telling your bicycle to do the work and then wonder why you aren't moving It helps some people to use less force though, if they are using far too much in the first place, but if not told afterwards, the loaded spring myth get's ingrained and perpetuated..There's even a nordic brand that uses it in advertising atm, saying most instructors know it's important to let the rod do the work etc.... uphill struggle

Notice what happens to the rod in this clip, when the hauling hand starts to seperate from the rodhand (which is when the haul really starts, some people interpret just by moving the hauling hand, the haul has started, which is not true..)



Or this one

https://vimeo.com/user1079324

Cheers
Not a ladder
Lasse

[Lou Bruno]

Lasse

Yeah sorry for the misspelling.
The rod begins to bend, deeply towards the butt section.
Lou

[nicholasfmoore]

Basically what Lasse said

I would also mention that you have to haul at the right time. The spring theory still exists, but in essence you want to increase the lines velocity, which means hauling late in the stroke. If not then you are just moving line through the rod, not increasing it's velocity, which is very inefficient (the spring theory again). The vast majority of people start far too early and risk peaking out with their hauling speed before RSP1, it's possible to haul too late, but as mentioned, the issue is starting to early.

Another consideration is the fact that hauling tightens loops, this is because the force needed is shared between the rod hand and the hauling hand, thus, your rod hand will back off the force for that same amount of line speed, as it's shared now. There is less bend and less counterflex. I think hauling straightens the tip path from minimum chord length to rod straight position too, but i can't confirm this, this would lead to a tighter loop. Has anyone done a slow mo vid on this?

There are some advantages to rod bend and also disadvantages. One big disadvantage already mentioned is counterflex. If you bend the rod, it has to unbend, and the counterflex will open up your loop and slow down the shooting of the line. There are lots of others. But i would just mention that the main idea of hauling is to directly increase line speed (velocity) and share the work load between hands.

Hope that helps?

All the best!