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That’s a good question George. So I’m comparing three styles here. Accuracy when the elbow, forearm and shoulder are all aligned to the target. There is no room for the elbow to go out at all. A distance style where the elbow comes in a straight line through and past the body. The elbow travels through and the hand travels behind as the elbow passes the shoulder in both directions. This enables us to get the hand/rod butt past the body and behind us, and then allows us to get the body in behind the cast on the forward delivery. And then there is the style being called “elbow out” where the effort is swinging the elbow out to the side.
So the first is like a dart. The second like a javelin. The third - not sure - it’s like swinging your elbow out to the side. I personally wouldn’t teach that. If you are going to get your arm out there, then you have to rotate forward with the body, get the elbow in front of the hand and drive over the top with the rod. Otherwise when you push forward with your hand you are putting stress on your shoulder in what to me feels like a weak position. Getting that elbow aligned to the cast I think is very important and the further it is away from your body the harder it is to get your body in behind the throw.
Paul Arden wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:39 pm And then there is the style being called “elbow out” where the effort is swinging the elbow out to the side.
Doesn't the elbow more or less "stay out" in that style?
I see this fairly often, and I will offer to help them get over it. And I do ask if there is a reason for it. I have a friend who has shoulder injuries that require this style. My general approach is to point out it will tire out you shoulder, and ask if they feel it.
From a teaching stand point, I see it start to crop up when people start to look at their loops. By getting the elbow out, they can get a better view. But in general, I see it as a flaw, because it limits straight line translational movement. You just can't pull your hand through the stroke from this position.
For the sidearm casters, I try to demonstrate the Lefty Kreh, elbow on the table, where the elbow travels in a straight line. When the elbow passes the body, it is close to the body.
Elbow out often is accompanied by "Stone Man" syndrome, where the only movement is from the elbow out the the rod and people are standing like a statue. This also happens when people are concentrating too hard on one aspect of their cast.
Actually you’re right Carlz, it can stay out there. It’s a strange moment because it involves twisting the upper arm around its axis as the primary rod mover, instead of, for example, closing or opening the elbow, or pulling down or through with the elbow.
So is this an "elbow out style" ? If not, why not?
You guys know better than I but my impression is that a lot of powerful casters throw with their upper arm level with their shoulder. I assume doing so allows them to maximize the effect of rotating and driving forward with their back and legs by creating a longer lever arm than if the elbow is lower.
I understand that if you keep your elbow out and try to create a long arc by rotating the shoulders in a horizontal plane it doesn't work but creating arc by a rocking/forward drive motion seems to have some utility.
I think perhaps a better descriptor of the style you are questioning than "Elbow Out" would be less confusing.
If you have watched Peter Morse's video on casting styles (see post #12 above) there is no need to check out the FFi Zoom from the other week. The two are very similar in content, except the Zoom required a lot more imagination as it was performed in a chair in front of a laptop camera, and without a rod or line.
Its almost like the Zoom demonstrator, (who's name I did not recognize and forget) watched Peter's. Or, maybe, Peter is not at odds with the FFi as much as a lot of folks on SL seem to be?
With appreciation and apologies to Ray Charles…
“If it wasn’t for AI, we wouldn’t have no I at all.”
Yep... there are a lot of photos of professional athletes throwing things, like US baseball pitchers, or NFL quarterbacks that look to be using a similar technique. Not to mention the thousands of young amateurs from PeWee up to college age that do to... since that is the way they are taught.
But they are not casting a flyrod.
However, it does seem to contradict the idea that the form is somehow weak, or leads to injuries.
A few weeks back in one of the NFL playoff games, a quarterback threw the football 70 yard. I forget who it was, but a football is a lot heavier than a fluff of yard and he did not need a 9 foot lever to help either. So I think we can stop worrying about the form being weak.
With appreciation and apologies to Ray Charles…
“If it wasn’t for AI, we wouldn’t have no I at all.”
A football rarely kicks back after being thrown :-)
It's a mass, and after it leaves the hand, there's just the very well conditioned arm to slow down. ANd they do throw their elbow out from time to time... Try being a poor conditioned dufuss and trying to stop the same weight, not leaving your hand and having a 9 foot leaver to stop too..
The form is weak if the body is frail, lift some weights, eat healthy, practice. :-)
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
As far as the Javalin thrower, I think Lasse has part of the answer, the stop, but also the javilin thrower is runing and twisting. I agree with one of Paul's earlier statements. As long as all of the pieces and parts are moving in a plane, *rod tip, grip, elbow, shoulder" then things should work.
As always, an interesting discussion. The following are my thoughts on casting technique. Certainly not conventional, nor reflective of current best practice, but nevertheless are my findings resulting from trying to improve my results and better understand casting technique.
The fact that we throw a line using a rod compared to throwing a football, baseball, cricket ball, javelin, stone or any other object, is irrelevant to technique. Also the fact that a javelin thrower has a run up and a crossover segment to the throw, preceding the power or launch segment, is also irrelevant. Look at the long established, fact that a World Champion or Olympic Champion javelin thrower will enter the final power or release segment of the throw, will have generated hand speed of approximately 9 metres per second. At the point of release, the hand speed will approximate 32 metres per second.
The question I asked experts in body movement was how is that additional speed of approximately 23 metres per second generated in the same body structure positioning to that used by my fly casting distance technique? After all, it happens in one step, exactly the same as my fly casting power or release stroke. I have seen here, that the hand speed generated by fly casting distance casting approximates 9 metres per second, off one step, mine was similar.
The answer to the question was simply technique. If a fly caster wants to increase hand speed, don't be an arm centric caster.
The statement made about single plane technique is correct, but the drivers are hand speed, the path followed by the hand to generate that hand speed and how the rest of the body moves to generate both that hand path and speed. The fact that the hand is holding a rod, is irrelevant.
There are well established, biomechanically based, proven training programs for all throwing sports, but all are based on the following objectives,
1. Efficiency and effectiveness of body movement range and sequence
2. Maximum possible output
3. Minimum trauma and overuse impact on joints, tendons and muscles
I suggest any caster who does not adopt correct casting technique, based on the same objectives, will be limited in respect their desired outcomes.
The issue of elbow in or out, up or down, is misleading. What is important is the hand path, the angles through which the forearm rotates and how that hand speed is generated. Casting should be rotation based, not linear movement based i.e all translation of the hand, hence rod, should be sourced to body rotation. The shoulder is a ball and socket joint so whenever the elbow is moved past the shoulder, either backwards or forwards, it will move outside of the shoulder, it can't move otherwise. The focus should be what the elbow, hand and forearm movement paths and planes are in all three segments of the cast, i.e. behind the shoulder, opposite the shoulder and in front of the shoulder. That focus needs to be viewed across an X axis, Y axis and Z axis framework. In respect to casting, the shoulder can only move with internal and external rotation so the range and sequence of other body segments are critical.
The "elbow out" cannot be a style because when the range of the elbow movement is from a point in front of the shoulder to a point behind the shoulder and vice versa, it cannot move in any other way. No other movement options are possible. The key is not the elbow, but the hand path generated when the elbow moves "out". However, for short line casting, in which accuracy is an objective, elbow out is an aspect of technique that should be critiqued. In this case I agree with Paul, and suggest it is less effective and efficient than the elbow moving in the plane of the shoulder. Each body segments sequencing needs to also include the cessation of that segment's movement so it becomes completely compatible with casting technique, given all the discussion about movement blocking or stops.
The only thing that is unique to casting is the range of movement, not the rod, line, or anything else. To equate the range of movement needed by casters, to other throwing sports, I would need to combine two other throwing sports to get a quality comparison, namely throwing a dart (short line casting) and throwing a ball (long line casting). The former being an elbow movement in a plane directly in front of, and above the shoulder, the latter being a movement range that incorporates points in front of, and behind, the shoulder.
Of course trauma and overuse injuries occur with casters, as they do with all other participants in any throwing sport. However, the fact is that technique, good or bad, impact both. It is all about the risk and undoubtedly, correct technique reduces the risk of injury, assists rehabilitation and better manages an individual's returning to their sport.
Wish I could do all of the above, maybe one day I'll get it right.
