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rod accuracy

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Boisker
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:30 pm

rod accuracy

#81

Post by Boisker » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:29 pm

Paul.... the world championships are in Cumbria 2018?. What month?

I'd love to make it up, I find watching great casting is a fantastic way to pick up the nuances involved, makes far more sense than any verbal description to me. I could perhaps tie it in with a day on the Eden as well :D

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Chris Korich
Posts: 19
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Location: Dagobah

rod accuracy

#82

Post by Chris Korich » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:52 am

easterncaster wrote:
Strongly agree!

I'm a fairly new competitor/member of the ACA. The people are fantastic, wonderful with their generosity. It has given me friends and skills that I never imagined. That means the world to me. I prosthelytize it's virtues to any and all that will listen.

Craig
Maybe a good place for me to contribute my first post ever!

Thanks for the recent instant messages about this 'rod accuracy' thread Paul. Great finally meeting you and many other competitors at the World Championships of Flycasting back in August!

As fellow ACA casting mate Craig has shared here, it's really amazing how welcoming and generous addicted fly fishers are, especially amongst the FUN casting game participants and here within the Sexyloops community. When I click on 'Contents' at the top of your home page, I'm blown away by what YOU and your cast of passionate contributors have achieved over the past 16 years. The Force has definitely been with you all!

When it comes to the fly tackle empire, I've kind of been in self-imposed exile for many decades, watching from afar, as many manufacturers has drifted farther and farther down the quicker, easier and more seductive 'dark side' path of tackle design and related marketing.

While in exile however, I haven't stopped testing and teaching others the secrets of accuracy casting and the importance of making smart equipment choices, especially during the early formative phases of learning and practicing.

Now that my most gifted Padawan, 12 yr-old Maxine McCormick, has passed the apprentice stage and become the youngest fly casting Jedi in history, I sense it's time for me to come out of the forest and do my best to contribute a bit here.

As Paul previously quoted in post #24, Maxine, father Glenn and myself, all chose 40 yr-old 1st gen graphite rods for Trout Accuracy at the World Championships in Estonia. The most obvious question is WHY?

Although there are numerous reasons, the single most important is FEEL. In particular, LINE feel, which Paul emphasizes, over and over again, in his excellent instructional posts!

If I'm correctly understanding the original 2 questions asked in post #1, the logical answer regarding what WJC has read about in ‘rod review shootouts’, has to do with how deep a test line is BENDING a particular rod at a given target distance, given the tester's stroke mechanics and ability to adapt.

At a 60 foot target distance, the heavier amount of line extended is going to help BEND a rod more deeply. Deeper bending, when not excessive, generally improves LINE FEEL and can easily help a caster execute his/her stroke and resulting cast more accurately.

At 30 feet, especially with modern light graphite and stiffer rod designs, minimal bending can easily rob a caster of adequate LINE FEEL. Hence, it's very easy to misdirect a short cast to a close target.

In essence, short strokes at close targets happen so quickly, the caster doesn't have the extra milliseconds and bio feedback to execute the stroke accurately. Combined with a lower mass of line extended and generally less line speed at 30 feet, it's also easy for air and wind conditions to negatively affect accuracy on the final delivery.

Hopefully now, the U.S. team's recent accuracy success using deeper bending and slightly heavier 1st gen graphite rods, makes a bit more sense.

Obviously, there's more to it, but all in good time!

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Paul Arden
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rod accuracy

#83

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:13 am

Hi Chris! A great first post - welcome to the Board!! :cool: :cool:

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

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Chris Korich
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Location: Dagobah

rod accuracy

#84

Post by Chris Korich » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:42 am

Thank you Paul. Honored to be welcomed by Sexyloops' fearless leader! :worthy:

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Graeme H
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

rod accuracy

#85

Post by Graeme H » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:51 am

Merlin wrote:So I am right in starting (or believing to start) accelerating the haul as the rod is at maximum bend (maximum tension in the line)?

Merlin
My thinking may not be supported by any true science, but I think of the bent rod as being something like a pulley. When I'm going for maximum distance, I want the rod the be as close to fully bent as possible before I begin my haul. When I begin the haul, I consider the rod to be a rather wide pulley over which I'm pulling the line with the haul. The tighter that bend in the rod, the less it will deflect (bend) with added force from the haul.

If I can also move the centre of that pulley in the direction of the cast (pushing the butt forward on the FC), I'm accelerating the line even more relative to the ground.

When I stop hauling, my rod arm is as far forward as I can get it and my hauling hand is as far from it as I can stretch. The rod then straightens, maintaining a close-to-straight tip path to make a tight loop once the line overtakes it.

If I begin my haul before the rod is well bent, the act of hauling only serves to shrink the diameter of the pulley as the rod absorbs the force I've added with the haul. The tip dips and them rises before the cast is complete, so I get a tailing loop in addition to the loss of force. Bugger ....

When I'm teaching my students to cast for distance, I get them watching the reel, using their peripheral vision to prompt the timing of the haul. "Rotate later, and don't haul until until you pass 12:00 in the rotation". By watching just the reel and hands and not loops or rod tips, they get the feeling for the haul timing. (Teaching for distance casting is also teaching them to deal with wind, and Perth is WINDY!!!)

The way I back cast now gives me a fully bent rod before I start my haul and my haul distance is further. Consequently, I get tighter loops and more line speed on my back cast than I can on my front cast. It was through self-analysis of my back cast that I came up with this idea of how the rod acts as a pulley when fully bent. It may not be "right" but it makes sense to me.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

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Graeme H
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rod accuracy

#86

Post by Graeme H » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:54 am

(PS - I think of the "rod hand moving forward as the hauling hand moves backward" as a way of effectively doubling the haul speed. A while ago there was a discussion about maximum punching speed and how that forms the limit of line acceleration due to the haul. I say Double that punch speed, because two hands are working in opposite directions to give forward speed for the line..)
FFi CCI

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Merlin
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rod accuracy

#87

Post by Merlin » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:16 am

Hi Chris

Thanks a lot for your participation and sharing your views. Fourty years ago they where also "fast" and "slow" rods, from the Fenwick HMG to the Orvis or Winston smooth rods. The Scotts were just 5 years old and Sage was not yet there, so what type of rods are being used for accuracy by the US team, if this is not a well kept secret? There are not many rodmakers who still built their old series.

I do share your views that you need rods which are adapted to the moderate distance used in that competition, so you absolutely do not need a modern rod to do that, but going for glass would be a bit too much. You could also overline a rod built for a lighter line and get similar results, I think, but I do not know if this is allowed by the rules.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Merlin
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rod accuracy

#88

Post by Merlin » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:28 am

Hi Graeme

I like the pulley analogy, even if it is something rather elusive during the cast. It makes sense to me and corresponds to what I am doing I think. The diameter of the pulley is at minimum as the tension of the line is maximum. Maybe I am starting slightly earlier, since I wait for the feel of maximum tension to accelerate the haul abruptly, but it is already gently started. Maybe I have some progress opportunity here, by waiting for max tension before starting the haul effectively, and using space as far as I can in the right timeframe instead of losing some of it by having already started.

I shall try to see if this happens as the rod is passing the vertical or when I can see the reel, which appear to be two other indicators for hauling, but I shall keep on acting upon the feel produced by the line tension. Feel is all important to me. Incidentally, backcasting appears easier to tune the haul and create really tight loops (High Speed High Line technique).

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Paul Arden
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rod accuracy

#89

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:47 am

Boisker, I don't know but I think in August. Lee will know.

Cheers Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

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gordonjudd
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rod accuracy

#90

Post by gordonjudd » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:53 pm

You could also overline a rod built for a lighter line and get similar results, I think, but I do not know if this is allowed by the rules.
Merlin,
It is not allowed in the ACA Bass Bug and Trout Accuracy games. For those games the maximum floating line diameter is specified to prevent over lining.

For the trout accuracy game it is:
i) Type - sha11 be standard fly fishing line of plastic floating type.
ii) Size - Maximum diameter shall not exceed 0.053 inches. (nominally a 6 wt line).

Interestingly In the U.S. there is no restriction on the line used in the Dry Fly game.
C) Line - Unrestricted, but shall not be marked in anyway that would indicate distance, nor fastened to
the reel at less than fifty (50) feet.

For Bass Bug the max line diameter is set at .068".
i) Type - Shall be standard fly fishing line of plastic floating type.
ii) Size - Maximum diameter shall not exceed 0.068 inches.

Since only the max diameter is specified, it seems to me you could get a higher rho_l advantage by using the larger specific gravity of an MED line and still be in compliance for the Trout Accuracy game.

Gordy

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