Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

[Paul Arden]

Yes there is the launch sequence! However I think it’s very important to take one step at a time. Generally we just give one (or sometimes three) things to dial in. So first it straightness - back and forwards. Then it’s carry. Body movement etc etc. Last is Launch!

For competition distance I don’t even bother teaching launch until the caster is carrying close to 90’ of MED since I see it as being pointless and maybe even counterproductive.

I seem to have a problem with the main site. Back later.

Cheers, Paul

* spam attack on our newsletter subscription.
Anyway to edit above that’s not the sequence straightness / carry / body etc. Body is paramount to me. But it has to be built around a straight stroke.

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your kind words, at my age and degree of decrepitude, talking about casting et alia, is about all can contribute.

I must congratulate all who contribute to this site, it is excellent and is a rich source of casting knowledge and that is due to the contributions from those who challenge convention and from those who support it.

You are correct about the important role of correct accuracy casting technique in instruction and the fact that the structure and movement involved transcends all casting, irrespective of the distance sought. I cast accuracy with both feet square to the casting direction whereas for distance that changes, however critical aspects like movement plane, body structure and the segment movement chain, hand speed and the generation thereof, and release speed and positioning, are all drivers of casting efficiency and effectiveness.

These, and other components of throwing, will drive the tenets of future casting instruction and result in much faster learning curves for fly fishers to come.

Hi Phil,

"John, I understand the forearm and rod alignment on the forward cast, but doesn't it have to vary a bit on the back cast if you make a long stroke with lots of torso rotation? As the right shoulder rotates it moves away from the line of the cast which means the elbow has to compensate by moving away from the body to stay on track.....????? Is this what you are talking about?"

Great question, you have encapsulated the major impediment to correct backcast technique. As the rod hand moves behind the shoulder and the shoulders rotate from square to parallel to the casting direction, and you rotate the forearm anticlockwise, through the vertical, the elbow needs to continue backwards in a straight line, directly under the wrist and hence rod tip. You are correct in saying the shoulder moves (rotates) away from the casting direction but the elbow does not move away from the casting direction. There is no requirement for the elbow to move off the casting line to stay on track, rather, the elbow defines the casting line, not the hand.

It is a fallacy for instructors to emphasise the hand as the source of the casting line, forget that, and focus on the elbow defining the casting line. If you do that, the elbow will move on a linear path throughout a long backcast movement, irrespective of either a locked or 170 wrist movement at the end. It will not move closer to the shoulder, and hence body structure will be maintained and you will initiate a full, powerful and correct shoulder rotation on the forward cast. Just like other throwing disciplines, the shoulders rotate 90 degrees and the elbow tracks linearly.

Great post in #50 above, welcome to the kinetic movement chain of throwing/casting club. I have to go to an appointment, but will post a few syllables when I get back.

Rotate to throw straight,

John

[Phil Blackmar]

John-that's some cool stuff. I look forward to hearing more....


Paul-I'm sticking to your original program you outlined despite some of these conversations moving on quicker than you might like. I admit to experimenting and spending some time to think about some of these ideas but I'm still focusing on pickup and lay down and accuracy casts with a closed stance.

[John Waters]

Hi Phil,

"I'm going to step out on a limb here a propose an idea for consideration amongst the group. I'm on a limb because I am the student, not a teacher of fly casting. However, I am a teacher in golf and assisted my son, who played 6 seasons of professional (minor league AA) baseball. John mentioned, in this thread "just like all other sports" and he is correct. Is there another source of power which could increase distance?"

Everybody is a student Phil, yet to meet an expert, although I have met a few blokes who think they are. There is one source of power that increases distance and that is correct technique. I am not a golfer but I presume golf is no different from any other activity, i.e the better the technique, applied under the pressure of the occasion, the better the result. Power is a derivative of the chain of movement of the body, it must be progressive, sequential, accumulating hand speed as each part accelerates and then brakes. If you are a right handed caster, each part of the right side of the body accelerates and each part of the left hand side of the body brakes that acceleration, and in doing so provides the basis for the next staged acceleration and brake movement all culminating in hand speed at the release point. Rod bend and line speed are outcomes, not drivers and both are sourced to a segmented, but accumulative body rotation.
All of that requires a solid connection to the ground because without that, the "brake" will not work. That is why footwork and planting the feet correctly are so important in casting and other sports. Balance and timing are limited without that surface connection and the braking it generates.

"Distance very simply equals: Carry plus line speed minus any deviations the line or fly makes from a straight line (tracking) (assuming a proper trajectory relative to the ground)."

I agree but would add that carry is gear dependent, but speed transcends gear variations.

'Importantly, line speed is a function of the speed the line is pulled PRIOR to release PLUS the release."

And that is all sourced to how the body moves the rod.

"The release is all about alignment and the bend in the rod (load)."

I view rod bend is an outcome only, the release point may vary depending upon objective.

"Properly timed acceleration is the key to loading the rod and translating it to the the line. Alignment gets it moving hopefully in the proper direction. Most conversations I have read focus on the haul to provide the most dynamic load at release which speeds the line."

Agree, it is all about accelerating the line and the final line speed achieved at release. No different from any other throwing sport. The haul optimises that outcome.

"Are there another source of acceleration? Paul talks about using the ground to activate the legs and create an upward force for additional acceleration and load. In golf this is referred to as GRF, or ground reactive force. Proper timing is essential. Too early and the rod will decelerate at release and too late is opportunity missed. This takes practice given everything else that is going on in the stroke."

Agree, timing is important but the timing of body segment acceleration and braking is the most important aspect of timing, not line shape timing. Refer my comments about feet planting and rotational braking, have not heard the term GRF, a good one.

"John talks about body rotation contributing to the linear force of the fly cast. This is where I want to add something. First, it's important to remember rhythm and timing. Paul, I seem to remember, speaks of "positioning" the rod after the end of the backcast and prior to the beginning of the forward stroke. This serves to align things as well as reduce any slack.

Prior to any acceleration, this step has to happen first."

Paul is correct, the key is to position the rod so that it can be accelerated through the forward cast. Once again, no different from the positioning of the ball, discus, javelin and other in the optimal position the engage the body segments in the forward movement. Rhythm is a key word because the body cannot accelerate fully unless the muscles (and mind) are relaxed, the essential stretching of the body needs to be rhythmical and sequential.

"Back to rotation. If a properly timed increased rotation of the body could be added to the stroke prior to GRF and the haul/release phase but after the positioning phase, then line speed would increase as would load prior to the haul/release."

Exactly, it is all about rotation and braking.

"Increasing body rotation can be accomplished by utilizing the Kinematic Sequence. KS is resistance in joints to create a stretched rubber band effect. In this case, if the feet, legs and hips all rotate while the shoulders resist rotation during the positioning phase, then the built up energy can accelerate shoulders and trunk rotation following positing. By accelerating the shoulders/trunk quicker, the rod hand will speed up and elbow bend more thus increasing line speed and load prior to haul and release......"

Exactly but I would add that the off-side braking allows that to happen. Braking makes that cumulative acceleration optimal.

"Examples of this are everywhere in the "modern" golf swing where distance has become the determining factor for elite players. It is also evident in the pitching motion in baseball...."

An excellent summation.

I apologise for the length of post, I hope it makes some sense.

John

[John Waters]

"Paul-I'm sticking to your original program you outlined despite some of these conversations moving on quicker than you might like. I admit to experimenting and spending some time to think about some of these ideas but I'm still focusing on pickup and lay down and accuracy casts with a closed stance."

Agree Phil, best way to go.

Good luck with your casting,

John

[Paul Arden]

Thanks guys. Great thread. These are my favourite discussions here.

I have two things to mention here, one is Phil you talked about the haul creating “the most dynamic load at release”. Alrighty there is a belief that was once held to be true and is still sometimes believed (erroneously) that the purpose of the haul is to increase rod bend/loading. However while hauling does have a small impact on rod loading, its primary purpose is to directly increase line speed (the haul pulls line through the rings and so it has a direct connection). If you can get your haul moving at 20mph then you have added 20mph to the line directly, irrespective of everything else.

It’s also important to realise that the rod is not a big spring that we wind up in the cast and then stop in order that it releases its energy to the line. Yes this can happen to a small extent, however I and many here would argue that the primary purpose of rod bend is to turn rotation at the butt into a linear path at the tip during the Casting Stroke. That is far more important than any big spring effect. I would also argue that the most important line acceleration phase occurs around about minimum chord length (the point in the casting stroke when the rod tip is closest to the rod butt) to slightly after up until when the rod tip deviates significantly away from our line’s main trajectory path. There is some discussion indeed about whether to release at this point! Certainly at the very least it doesn’t appear to negatively impact maximum distance and I release “early” on Snakehead shots. So I think what really matters most is what is happening around MCL (as opposed to what is happening immediately prior to RSP - Rod Straight Position, which is the unloaded rod passing through straight on its way to rebend into counterflex). Indeed I was surprised to learn that my haul acceleration peaks around MCL in a cast that the physics team analysed. And that’s a wholly different understanding of what matters in the cast.

Your other question about the difficulties of tracking straight with relation to the body is excellent. John is spot on with elbow path and that’s exactly what I look at too. One adjustment you can make is to arch your back slightly as your elbow comes through on the backcast. You’ll need to bend your knees otherwise you’ll fall over! And you want to sink your back leg in particular. Then on the forward cast you come through with the elbow by untwisting the torso and then once the elbow is through you can get your shoulder back in behind the cast. It’s that arching of the back away from the line path that allows us to keep the elbow aligned on the backcast and then we return it to get in behind the forward cast.

So I will talk a little about the launch sequence because it’s come up. And this applies to distance and not taking shots at 80’. As you mentioned I like to get underneath the grip. What happens is we come through with the rod butt aiming at target line. The rod butt is first and the thumb is under the rod. To turn the rod over you push up from your front leg. In order to do this when you come forward from back to front foot, you come from a sunken leg on the back foot onto a bent leg on the front foot, and then to finally turn the rod over we push up from the front leg... and we launch up, aiming at a target 15 degrees above the horizontal and then we finish by following the thumb through to that point way off as far as the eye can see. The force however, the “hit”, happens as the thumb/rod butt passes the vertical and that’s when we hit the haul. Bang! Like clicking your fingers, both rod and haul. Those are the best casts.

It’s not force. It’s timing. And it’s far more important to be smooth than to be forceful.

You look at distance casters and you think “they really hit it” and yes for the last few inches we hit it. No question. But if we didn’t hit it it’s very damned close. Sometimes it even goes further. When my wife is back I’ll make a video of this because 100’ is effortless I mean really effortless. And I’m sure if you asked any distance caster they would agree. If you are hitting 130, then 120 is effortless. But the components are all the same.

I bet it’s the same on the driving range?

Cheers, Paul

- I’ll make a little diagram for some of the above terminology.

[Paul Arden]

I’m sure you’ll find the accuracy stroke, once it’s dialled in, alone will go further or the same as you current distance. And then when we start to turn that into a distance cast then it will go a lot further.

It’s great fun - I envy you! Well actually I’m still working on my cast too

Tell me as a golf pro how much time did you spend working on your swing?

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

#56 and #57 are great posts Paul.

John

[Paul Arden]

Thanks John. I should probably clarify when I say peak haul acceleration was around MCL, it was of course after MCL. It was however closer to MCL than RSP which surprised me. I would love to see more casts analysed, unfortunately it’s a HUGE amount of work and truly hats off to Gordy for doing this.

I remember at the time Gordy and Merlin suggested trying to peak the haul later. I’ve certainly tried it (I thought I was doing it) but I’m now led to believe that the critical point is up to when the tip deviates from fly leg’s trajectory.

I’m almost at the point in thinking that’s when the Casting Stroke ends and not RSP. It does appear it can be the separation between fly and rod legs as well, particularly if we release or even just decelerate the haul.

It’s something I’m currently working on with my cast.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Wow, lots here Paul-

I'll work backwards. In golf, technique is very important, especially sequence as John mentioned. However, there is no "right" way to swing. There are many variations or styles within certain ranges or parameters. If you look at the top 30 players in the world you'll see different grips, stances, swing planes, lengths of swings, releases and so on.

I did work on technique a lot. In fact, too much. I played my best when I "played" golf instead of thinking golf swing. That leads into a much bigger topic, the mental game.

I could hit it long when younger. I finished 2nd and 5th in the National Long Drive Championships. Max speed came from sequence, timing and tensionless effort-an oxymoron for many.

Casting thoughts. This is a really fun conversation.....Thanks for including me.

I can throw 95 feet with very little effort. I have reached 105 with arms, rods and legs flapping all about like a wounded bird. I haven't had a chance due to high winds to reach out on a cast in a few days after working on some of this stuff.

When working on the closed stance shorter ranges, I can make the top line on the forward cast work totally straight with slow timing where it feels like the rod and line become one entity. It's like drawing a line with a long pencil and it feels velvety.

"push up from the front leg", this is the breaking of which John spoke. Breaking creates acceleration.

"I was surprised to learn that my haul acceleration peaks around MCL in a cast that the physics team analysed". The haul is the final straw that creates the amount of MCL.

The load in a rod creates a bend. The beginning point of this bend is like a fulcrum or lever. It has to be a key component in creating line speed...."The horizontal flyline velocity equals the maximum horizontal component of the rod tip velocity. However, since the end of the line is attached to the rod tip, that end will have essentially zero velocity." https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/37776458.pdf. Energy from hand speed, body rotation and a haul transfers into the rod in the form of bend. More bend is more kinetic energy which is proportional to the speed of the rod tip.

Imagine a pitcher's arm as the rod and the point of flex is at the elbow...Look at these pictures. .http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Pit ... Elbow.html ...."When the shoulders start to decelerate, the elbow then rapidly, and automatically, extends through the release point." This is the same as the rod flex from MCL to MCF which happens when the butt stops moving and the haul is finished....again, breaking creates acceleration...

Timing and rhythm are everything.

It's 8 am here and the wind is already blowing 20-25mph. :(:(

Cheers