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Why does the 170/stopless work

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Lasse Karlsson
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#41

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:57 pm

Hi John

Just a shower thought, but what about having a look at the muscles used in the two technique? Rajeff backcast is mainly bicep flexing, and forward cast is mainly tricep flexing. 170 is tricep both ways. And yes I do know there is a whole bunch of different muscle groups firing of, this is just a distance look at things. Same muscles used in similar fashion makes it easier to hit right, and with a running start its also smooth.. And it reminds of the back swing when throwing a stone as a kid, something we all have done, and the bodyblocking natur of the bicep backcast is not something we usually do.
As I said, shower thought, probably nothing, maybe just a piece of the puzzle :blush:

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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#42

Post by John Waters » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 am

Hi Lasse,

I think you make an important distinction between the two techniques, very important in fact. We move rod so the effectiveness of the respective joints and muscle groups is critical. Steve is a very powerful caster and he has not changed his body movement since I first met him in 1973. A super caster, however the block you refer to is critical to his technique. I agree that a block and drift is not as fluid as a no block technique and certainly uses different muscle groups and is unique to casting as a throwing sport. I think the key to differentiating the two techniques is how you rotate your trunck, prior to using the arm muscles, in the block and drift technique and therin lies the key to the block and drift technique. If you are using your arm to generate speed, the stopless cast is the better for all the reasons that have been stated.

I need to play with the stopless cast far more to better understand it from a body mechanics viewpoint.

Thanks,

John

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Paul Arden
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#43

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:38 am

I think Steve has opened up his 5WT delivery stroke certainly since I’ve known him. In the first world championships he was far more compact. There is a video of his demonstrating 5WT distance in the movies section from 2004 or 5.

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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#44

Post by John Waters » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:09 am

Thanks Paul, would please show me how I can view the the video? I can’t find it on the site. Would be interested in seeing any changes he has made to his technique.

Thanks,

John

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Paul Arden
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#45

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 am

Try here John. It’s also on YouTube somewhere. I’ll look later. http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/stevera ... rajeff.mpg
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#46

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:12 am

Hmmm maybe I’m wrong. I thought he had opened up more, but maybe not. This was 2004 (I think).



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Why does the 170/stopless work

#47

Post by John Waters » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:35 am

Thanks Paul, I had not seen that one. It is interesting that all the US west coast distance casters use that same technique. I’ve got some super 8 film somewhere, of Jon Tarantino casting fly distance at Golden Gate pool in the late sixties, and he and Steve use the same stroke. All power, but applied very smoothly.
I saw a young Swedish caster in Cumbria cast superb loops in training late on the Thursday afternoon but I had spent the day in the local hospital that day getting checked out for deep vein thrombosis and did not have my camera with me when I returned. That was a bummer as I reckon the best place to watch casters is during practice and I had planned to get a lot of film of what is a new technique for me. By the time I got back, it was dusk so the line shape would not have been captured anyway. Pity because the loops were very arrowhead shaped and very fast. He was a pleasure to watch. I have seen the same shaped loops thrown by casters using a short arc, block and drift so it boils down to what you feel most comfortable with. The conundrum with the two techniques is always do you change and if so, when do you change. Irrespective, a very interesting subject.

John

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Why does the 170/stopless work

#48

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:45 am

It’s quite funny, I’ve frequently heard the 170 referred to as “European Style”. I learned it from Rick Hartman the same year I took that video of Steve. Rick had taken something Jim Gunderson was doing and refined it.

As I wrote earlier if the MED was a 90’DT then the 170 would be the only competitive stroke, because it’s the one that allows you to carry the most. The MED is just borderline and can be cast using Rajeff’s style, unless there is a strong tail wind. Even in a gale I can still straighten a 90’ carry with the 170.

The other advantage with this stroke is you can turn around and cast backwards when the wind is on the wrong shoulder.

Cheers, Paul
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crunch
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#49

Post by crunch » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:40 pm

John Waters wrote: I saw a young Swedish caster in Cumbria cast superb loops in training late on the Thursday afternoon but I had spent the day in the local hospital that day getting checked out for deep vein thrombosis and did not have my camera with me when I returned. That was a bummer as I reckon the best place to watch casters is during practice and I had planned to get a lot of film of what is a new technique for me. By the time I got back, it was dusk so the line shape would not have been captured anyway. Pity because the loops were very arrowhead shaped and very fast. He was a pleasure to watch. I have seen the same shaped loops thrown by casters using a short arc, block and drift so it boils down to what you feel most comfortable with. The conundrum with the two techniques is always do you change and if so, when do you change. Irrespective, a very interesting subject.

John
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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#50

Post by John Waters » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:02 am

Thanks Crunch, that is the young lad, good caster.

John

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