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What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

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Geenomad
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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#11

Post by Geenomad » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:12 am

Thanks for all the thanks folks. There is not much more on the detail of Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning that I want to say. The first paragraph of the OP says how important I think it is.

My contribution to these related subjects is small potatoes at about 12.5k words. Even so comparatively few people are reading through to the last part of the biomechanics article where a fair amount of the gold is stashed. Sensory Motor Learning was a big hit to begin with but has now fallen well down the list of views. We will see what happens but the early numbers would seem to confirm that the subject matter is not considered mainstream. Of course I knew that when I started. :D

The bigger picture is that many other sports and pastimes with many more players are scientifically light years in front of fly casting in terms of performance, practice and coaching. It's a numbers thing - money included - and there's not much we can do about that. Casting geeks and people who both aspire to excellence and are committed to doing the work necessary to achieve it are a very small proportion of a very small population compared with sports like golf or football.

All that said and accepted, in a community like this one we still have important choices and decisions to make individually and collectively. Fly casting has been held back by exceptionalism, the idea that is unique and special, and versions of this show up in various ways on the Board. It's not that we need to dumb it down but rather that we need to open it up. Looking beyond physics and to knowledge available outside the established sources and culture is one of those choices.


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Mark
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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:51 am

Fly casting has been held back by exceptionalism, the idea that is unique and special, and versions of this show up in various ways on the Board. It's not that we need to dumb it down but rather that we need to open it up. Looking beyond physics and to knowledge available outside the established sources and culture is one of those choices.
I’m not sure that you are opening it to a wider audience by discussing “biomechanics and sensory motor learning”, for me that is even more niche! :p

Fair enough Lasse, but then the personal style that you point out is irrelevant because I don’t think anyone worries about changing that in a lesson since you should be able to identify the same caster whether he makes accuracy or distance casts. However if you were to decide that that is only style and the rest is technique then “style” is pretty much a redundant term. I can swing with that by the way, but unfortunately not all the world knows it yet!

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#13

Post by Geenomad » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:10 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:51 am

I’m not sure that you are opening it to a wider audience by discussing “biomechanics and sensory motor learning”, for me that is even more niche! :p
Other way around Paul. Trying to open the niche inhabitants to a wider world of useful ideas and relevant knowledge. Not trying to recruit more people to a narrow niche.

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#14

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:19 pm

In which case it’s not Instructor associations who study this but instead it’s club level/ WC level coaches. John Waters I know has studied this extensively - as have the Swedes in particular. I’ve read a fair bit of Javelin studies in the past. I think that this is the closest we have to fly casting distance, although of course we have the addition of the backcast. The best instructors I know have a real eye for body movement. The best instructor I’ve had personally for me has been Jon Allen. I spent a little time with Mel who was very interested in the body. His second video was very much down this line. Another person who is thoroughly into casting biomechanics is Jason Borger. It’s a vast subject and I agree there is not too much written on the subject in flycasting and often what there is lacks technical understanding as to what style or technique is best for which application. It’s a great subject. Much of what I’ve learned apart from Javelin has been through experimenting and teaching (and of course time spent with Rick who massively influenced my throwing).

The understanding is certainly there. However the people who are actually interested in it are comp casters. It filters down into Instruction of course. But I’ve often found it hampered by instructors who have finished with learning.
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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#15

Post by Merlin » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:49 pm

A few years ago I paid some interest to biomechanics. This domain is mostly focused on Olympic events (e.g. javelin, pole vaulting, etc.) or very popular sports (e.g. golf, baseball pitch) and also on disabled people for recovering from severe injuries. I never found an example or a publication related to fly casting. Maybe I did not focus enough on training which is the interesting topic. It is a fascinating area where you can get some idea about how your body works, and it appears to be very complex with notions like instantaneous accelerations, cumulative accelerations, and induced torques form one joint to the other ones nearby. I haven’t seen simple examples explaining how to benefit from biomechanics for training, likely because I failed to found them. If we want to investigate, we do need the support of knowledgeable people in that specific field, and I am afraid there is none on this forum yet.

I read all the documents provided in Mark’s forum and I shall comment some directly on his blog. The information available on biomechanics is helpful I think, I have more or less used some recipes unconsciously to correct my cast when it goes wrong, and it is good to see that those recipes are identified, that should contribute to improve casting, mine particularly :) .

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#16

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:39 pm

Merlin wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:49 pm
I haven’t seen simple examples explaining how to benefit from biomechanics for training, likely because I failed to found them. If we want to investigate, we do need the support of knowledgeable people in that specific field, and I am afraid there is none on this forum yet.

Merlin
There's this guy :
https://www.ltu.se/staff/u/ulrroi-1.61147?l=en

But he is way too busy to engage in online debate, which is too bad, I've learned loads from him.

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#17

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:52 pm

Yeah I just don’t agree with this. I think that’s what we’ve been teaching in casting sport ever since we’ve been competing. Just because publications have been talking about what the rod does doesn’t mean we haven’t been figuring out how to move it in club circles. We are athletes.

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#18

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:04 am

I agree with Paul, and let's not forget one of the top Norwegian competitors used to or might still be the coach for their olympic javelin team...

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#19

Post by Merlin » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:39 am

Thanks Lasse

I have been in touch with Ulrik by the way, but I did not realize he was a specialist in physiotherapy. So I was pessimistic regarding resources.
Biomechanics is an help for athletes in many fields, I wonder if there is something available for laymen. Apart from the five essentials, is there some recommandations about "how to" achieve them? For example we use to mention SLP but no one can actually see if he makes a correct SLP or not, since it is not easily visible. When we are on our own, we manage the errors in fact (e.g. tailing loop) to get a correct motion.

I know it is outdated to say the least, but I used to practice with a bottle along the recommandations made by Charles Ritz in his books. With that you can warm up muscles and by using a gentle stroke your brain can learn how to control the inertia of the bottle to get a correct stop (forward and backward). Very crude, not competition designed, but it worked for me, even for casting with my left hand. In that case I can get the stroke, but not the tracking. My left hand is a distress solution when I cannot find a casting solution with my right one, it is not as manageable as my right hand. Large lack of training, I'm afraid.

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Re: What the Body Does: Fly Casting, Biomechanics and Sensory Motor Learning

#20

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:06 pm

It’s interesting that we have three different stances for 5WT distance. Open with a weight shift, closed with a step (Hartman) and then 2 or more steps (Sweden).

The key Merlin, I think, is to track straight, and to find a way of getting your weight shift aligned so that you can track straight. Obviously there is an immense amount of detail. Particularly given the fact that there some pretty wide variations in technique. (The same in javelin too by the way, where it’s possible to launch off either foot).

I’ll try to put something together and send it over to Ulrik and Stefan for some input. It might be interesting.

Cheers, Paul
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