Loop shape?

[Morsie]

Yes you can (I guess essentially its creep) and like any creep if you add what you lost from the stroke on the back to the front you can overcome it (as per your earlier post). However I think that's just a band aid fix. I ask my students to soften their grip and start slower. Most of the time they make progress, sometimes they don't and I'm wondering if other issues are at play. I had this problem on my back cast a lot a few years ago and it took a lot of work to get to the bottom of it. It was caused by a micro creep at the start of the bc, it was very brief and it took Matt Howell and Simon Zarifeh a long time to identify it. But I think this other issue is a full on early acceleration. I'm interested in other's observations on causes of that particular loop shape because I'm seeing so much of it lately.

Morsie

[Michal Duzynski]

Yes you can (I guess essentially its creep) and like any creep if you add what you lost from the stroke on the back to the front you can overcome it
Morsie

Hi Peter
If you do it as an intentianal creep, is it a slide loading then?
Ive been practicing big pike fly casting latetly,if I let the loop to straighten it kicks back,but when I start my forward stroke while the BC is still unroling things are getting smooth
cheers
mike

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Peter

I'm still pretty convinced that trajectory plays a good part in this

I know this is a crappy pic, but does the line figuration look similar to what you see?

serbia 047_693.JPG (140.25 KiB) Viewed 4095 times

And , don't talk about those pesky tails in the BC, had one for years on my second bc when coastal fishing, took me ages to figure out why, sadly good instructors wheren't really abundant here at the time (read none)

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

It could be many things. Trajectory, a tail, a domed and underpowered tip path, a dangling end, starting too soon. Sometimes when it's difficult to isolate the cause I find it best to teach one or more of the solid drills; such as the Triangle Method, PUALDs, Bill's one foot at a time, Mel's bouncing the rod followed by minimum power exercises or Jason's foundation stroke at targets. Trying to isolate the cause and making small tweaks to try to fix it, if it doesn't work, has the tendency to make things worse and for both the student and instructor to feel inadequate, which we definitely don't want! We can avoid all that by getting him or her to do something well.

Cheers, Paul

[Morsie]

I can just make out that loop Lasse, usually it doesn't go so far as to cross, it is more like the images in Carl's DVD. I don't have anyone here to take pics at the moment or I'd fire some up.

Paul I usually work on the small steps principles too. Unfortunately its just about impossible to move forward with someone's casting until you have this sorted out. I had a student in a wheelchair on the weekend who is off to Canada to go fishing in a months time and this is a problem for him that I want to have sorted before he goes. I call it "hammer hand" and it shows up a lot in carpenters, and guess what, he was a carpenter before his accident. I see it as an early and powerful wrist problem. The PUALD cast is a good one and we worked on that but from a wheelchair you need a range of styles. Someone in a wheelchair can't add a lot of body to the cast and this guy has powerful arms. Its a very interesting exercise in teaching.

Morsie

[Paul Arden]

Hi Morsie,

if he's in a wheelchair it could also be a trajectory issue, in trying to cast too high on the forward cast for the angle of the backcast. The carpenters I know are Hair, Ronan and Peter the Pig Hunter - not a problem for these guys, but I know what you mean! I would try experimenting with the minimum force drills, relaxing the grip and so on.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Peter,
to me this loop shape isn't anything I'd call to be a "tailing Loop". A tailing loop to me still is a wave in the fly-leg, which may or may not cross the rod-leg (depending on the position/angle from where we watch it). In your picture I don't find a wave in the fly-leg. It is just smoothly curved.

Am not sure there is any need to heal this loop shape. Did you get any problem with it?
I ask, because if I cast in very low line speed an underslung or crossing loop may look similar.
And that to me is often the sign of an excellent smooth cast.

Anyway the causes may be many here. The biggest problem is, that your picture is in 2d and your cast hapens in 3d. That makes it hard (inpossible) to judge about the causes. We need a video I think.

Am pretty sure there hasn't to be any 180 issue at all to shape such a loop. Ok, this doesn't mean there can't be a 180 issue either.

I would check the timing and the proper acceleration first.
How about length of leader? Very short ones may help to shape such a Loop.
Greets
Bernd

[Morsie]

Spent a little time on this with Simon Zarifeh. Early acceleration is the cause I was looking for but one of the consequences of an early acceleration seems to be a higher and premature finish, so my conclusion is that the less than 180 is a consequence of the excessive and early start.

Morsie