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Leader design and wind knots

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#11

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:29 pm Incidentally I think that is the first example video of tailing loops forming “wind knots“ that I have seen! Great stuff!!
Me think so too!
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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#12

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

clayed21085 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:07 pm I agree with paul, you took the initiative to upload the very first video of knots actually forming! Luckily my casting doesn't generate that bad of closed loops, I see them mostly at the end of my casts, and their isn't a collision, usually just a crossing.
Although the fly will occasionally catch on the line\leader connection.I also want to mention another possible outcome of knots, and that is when your leader falls into a pile at the end of the cast, especially if the fly lands first with a loop on top, the line is pulled taught pulling loop over fly. This may explain why I have less issues with heavier fly sinking below everything.
Its very difficult to see what is shown in Graeme's clip, especially when standing with the rod in hand looking down the line, and as Paul said, it might just happen in the backcast, and thats even harder to notice.

The knot from landing in a heap, happens rarely, and usually requires line to land first, and the the fly dropping down into the mess, and making a knot from who knows where. Be interesting to spot one where the fly lands first 🙂 heavier fly usually means the fly lands furthest away, unless it lands in a tail 😉

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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#13

Post by clayed21085 »

Where in the stroke should I be focusing on improving if tails are happening near end of the cast?
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Graeme H
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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#14

Post by Graeme H »

The generally accepted answer is that it's happening early in your stroke if the crash appears late in the extension of the cast. (I don't know how true that is.)

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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#15

Post by Graeme H »

Lasse Karlsson wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:21 pm
Paul Arden wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:29 pm Incidentally I think that is the first example video of tailing loops forming “wind knots“ that I have seen! Great stuff!!
Me think so too!
The reason I sat on the video so long is that I didn't actually make a knot during the 6 or 7 minutes of casting tails. I want to return with a longer leader and film the fly popping through that closed loop.

I think Paul's note that the knot slides to the tippet and tightens on the back cast is also worth capturing.

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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#16

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

[quote]
The reason I sat on the video so long is that I didn't [i]actually[/i] make a knot during the 6 or 7 minutes of casting tails. I want to return with a longer leader and film the fly popping through that closed loop.

I think Paul's note that the knot slides to the tippet and tightens on the back cast is also worth capturing.

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Graeme
[/quote]

Not all tails cause knots :D

And yeah, that happens too, have you ever tried Haysies put a knot in the flyline game? Its fun :p

And it took years to get people on board with a late tail happens early in the stroke, it does. Aitor Coterón has some good clips on vimeo, they where the turning point in getting the point across. Its just like me ding, but in reverse, if you want the mend to travel far, you want it done early. With tails, the wave is small early on, and get to travel all the way, late, its big because it's done with more force at the end of the stroke, and clearly visible and the prefered to show by Instructors for just that reason ;) the one happing late in the cast is more common but hard as hell to make on command :D

The mend analogy was used previously to prove that for a tail to travel far it had to be done late in the stroke to have enough force, in reality it was the other way around :D

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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#17

Post by Paul Arden »

I think there is understandably some confusion here because let’s say you want to use a tail to collapse the loop at the leader then where do you spike the power? Me personally I do it right at the end of the stroke.

So while I understand and agree with Aitor, Alejandro and Mark’s video I don’t think you can use it to say that categorically all tails that “appear“ at the end of the loop are caused by tip deviations at the beginning of the casting stroke. Of course in my example the tail does actually intersect early (so the tail is occurring early/the spike is late) but the result is still a collapsed leader making it difficult to determine when the tail was formed.

This means that when trying to find the cause of tailing loops the position of the tail is not really going to tell you very much without slow motion footage of the tail actually forming and without slow-motion you really need to analyse the caster and run through the potential causes in your mind according to what form you are seeing.

So to answer James’ question - this is very complicated because tails that appear late may have appeared earlier (the timing involved is surprisingly quick!). Most tails actually occur because of something at the end of the stroke - usually a power spike or occasionally a mistimed haul. Some tails happen as a result of the complete stroke (too narrow an arc). And less common but still a regular problem at the beginning of the stroke (poor transition between strokes). Creep is an interesting one - it’s something you do wrong at the beginning of the stroke but the tip path deviation occurs at the end :laugh:

Tackle can also make a problem. Particularly very soft rods, very heavy lines, lines without a front taper, leaders that haven’t been well tapered.

If you want to see a lot of tails then go to the World Championships! When pushing for maximum distance there is a very fine line between a tail and a perfectly straight fly leg. Finding the line between the two is certainly where I play with the stroke - and judging by the loops I see, almost everyone else too! When fishing I obviously steer towards a more open loop because who the hell wants to spend all day undoing knots? :D

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Graeme H
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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#18

Post by Graeme H »

Paul Arden wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:08 am who the hell wants to spend all day undoing knots? :D

Cheers, Paul
Meh, it gives me something to do when the fish are on holiday ... :whistle:

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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#19

Post by James9118 »

Paul Arden wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:08 am
So to answer James’ question - this is very complicated because tails that appear late may have appeared earlier (the timing involved is surprisingly quick!). Most tails actually occur because of something at the end of the stroke - usually a power spike or occasionally a mistimed haul. Some tails happen as a result of the complete stroke (too narrow an arc). And less common but still a regular problem at the beginning of the stroke (poor transition between strokes). Creep is an interesting one - it’s something you do wrong at the beginning of the stroke but the tip path deviation occurs at the end :laugh:
Hi Paul,

I know you're trying to generalise a bit here, but I think your comment about most tails occurring because of something late in the stroke is incorrect. Sure, if asked to demonstrate a tail, we'd all spike it late - but that's to guarantee we get a horrible mess, this isn't how most 'genuine' tails look to me. Genuine tails are much more subtle and are usually put in by the caster right at the start of the forward stroke.

What I believe happens with creep is that the rod is moved forward to a position where it is much more sensitive to the initial input. Someone who has drifted correctly starts with the rod tip pointing somewhat down the line, here it is fairly insensitive to early power inconsistencies. Contrasted with someone who has crept - here the rod tip may be at 90 degrees to the line and very sensitive to how the initial power is supplied.

Obviously the rod tip position at the start doesn't matter if you're perfectly smooth, as shown by various videos. However, for a beginner, having the rod tip orientated in a 'sensitive' position right at the start of the stroke can lead to tails.

James
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Paul Arden
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Re: Leader design and wind knots

#20

Post by Paul Arden »

Well I suppose it depends on our students :D

I’ve certainly had a lot of reservoir guys spike force at the end of the casting stroke, in and around the stop. That’s actually not too dissimilar to how we demonstrate it, even with an upwards trajectory! Hauling problems are actually a rare cause in my experience and apart from rare examples only occur when first learning the haul. However in both cases they are late in the Stoke examples.

I agree with you on Creep.

Poor transition between back and forward casts is a common cause. That’s right at the beginning of the stroke. With my students however that’s certainly not the majority who have this problem. However it is most certainly the most difficult to fix and it’s not an easy one to identify either.

Cheers, Paul
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