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Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

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nicholasfmoore
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Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#1

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:46 pm

Hi Everyone,

The name of this cast eludes me, even though i use it quite a lot on still waters! It is basically like a PUALD with a half hearted back cast, and then of course. Splash and go. It is not quite a jump roll as there is no inclined sweep or even a circle up. The belly has a level drop.

Is it just a 'dynamic roll'? Do you know what Mel called it, Paul?

All the best

Nick
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"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#2

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:51 am

Hi Nick,

You know that when Mel made his Video we used to teach Crashed Anchors at APGAI as normal casts :D Dynamic Roll Casts and the expectations of what we expect to see has changed massively in the past decade or so. So I would call it a Dynamic or Jump Roll Cast.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#3

Post by nicholasfmoore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:56 pm

Hi Paul,

Thank you very much for your reply! It's amazing how far our understanding has come in terms of casting. :sorcerer:

I can't remember what video it was, but Mel was teaching the 'normal' jump roll, and i observed that he dipped the rod in a shallow saucer shaped tip path. In fact, i know a lot of chaps that teach this, and they get good results. Now. :whistle:

I don't do this all the time, but if i do i accelerate into the d loop stroke to pull the slack out, and i get a great V loop. I think you do this too? Do you mostly teach 'up the stairs and across the landing?' I guess it depends on the student. The former description is what has resulted in the cast below. Please excuse the oversized trousers, it's a nightmare finding my size... :laugh:

All the best!

Nick
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:28 am

That’s a very good question, Nick.

I can actually think of three common ways of forming the D-loop; tip continually rising, flat spot on the Sweep and to dip the tip.

1 *can* result in a skipping anchor
3 *can* result in a crashed anchor

But they all do work. With a beginner I work with 1 and 2. 1 can work fine and 2 gives a bit more control with the length of the anchor (the length of the anchor is correlated to the length of the flat spot).

3 I teach to guys/girls who already have consistent anchors and a nice Dynamic Roll Cast. If you add the sort of speed that you put into 3 into either 1 or 2 the anchor always misses. 3 for me has always been a more purposeful anchor positioning move, there is nothing “wishy-washy” about it, you can pick up (and turn) a longer length of line, and the D/V loops are much sharper. One final advantage is that it can put you in position for a wider, more powerful forward arc, or indeed a higher forward trajectory.

But I think there is a process of learning this and it’s not fast. I don’t think it’s one or two lessons. I think it’s “years”. And I do mean that quite literally; I think it’s several years of practise and usage.

We have the same thing in overhead casting too. While you might be able to teach the 170 or pull-back to a beginner, they are really things that you start teaching at a much more advanced level. And if you try to teach them to beginners you generally do them a disservice.

Others may see this differently and there may be exceptions of course. Every once in a while we do find people who are sporty, just do everything we tell them and are exceptional students. The rest of us have to walk the long road :laugh:

As a “long road walker” myself, I’ve always thought that it meant more when I got to the end (that’s probably bollocks of course!), but there is something very much to be gained from learning the hard way when it comes to teaching - because we had to earn every damned step!! :D

So that’s how I separate them. 3 is not part of any instructor exam. 170 and pull-back is not part of any instructor exam. I think this is one reason why there is confusion.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#5

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:11 pm

3 depends on when you dip, Simon Gawesworth used to teach it (don't know if he still does) dip at the right time and it fits the cast, dip at the wrong time and it hurts the cast.

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Lasse
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#6

Post by stesiik » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:53 pm

Hi all!

My cents here is early rotation on the backcast. I know how that might sound but look at compeditive speycasting. They basically do away with all the difficult stuff in the beginning of the cycle. Then they lift and push.

Best regards
Stefan

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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#7

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:37 pm

The 18ft single Spey comps I’ve always found fascinating, Stefan... crossed and crashed anchors are normal. However I suppose with such a long head it’s next to impossible to turn the anchor. It makes you realise just how unimportant some things are!

Something I’ve never actually tried is distance casting single Spey casts with single handed rods and crossed anchors for comparison. I’ll have a play with that tomorrow on the lake.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#8

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:31 pm

Hi All,

Thank you all for your responses, it's good to get other peoples points of view on this sort of stuff. I must admit that i do like dipping the rod, i get consistent anchor placement, a nice V loop and a sense of yin-yang if you believe in that stuff. Also regarding pullback, i do love using it. Why isn't it in any exam? It's so useful to accelerate turnover as well as setting a tight loop on spey casts. That's mainly what i use it for anyway, sometimes i use it on the back cast but not always.

Good point, Stefan!

Paul, have you tried a jump roll or single spey with the whole head of the MED?! I think the head is 85' from what i remember looking at the box, that's for the competition #6. Have you thought about doing a video with hauls added to spey casts? If i remember rightly, you did add it into your roll cast video.

I do sometimes blow the anchor when i double haul a spey cast off shoulder. I really hate casting off shoulder, and i resort to switching hands if i have to cast on the left side of my body, much more comfortable, and i can get a better haul and a longer stroke. I can't quite cast the whole head with my left hand, i believe it's around 15' shorter than my right hand. We have a platform that is perfect for spey casting at my local water. I don't tend to fish rivers that much anymore. Nothing better than tuning up and bombing out a few speys before anyone has turned up :D

All the best and happy new year

Nick
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#9

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:38 am

If you are blowing the anchor on one side, just go right, left, right, left until you work out why it is. You might just be applying too much force too early on the Sweep. For me these long pick ups are a fun or an exam thing. I always fish streamers to my feet!

The orange MED comp head is not what it says on the box but is in fact the same as the non-comp line, which used to be called the XXD. Can’t remember what they call it now. Head is 68-72’ depending on line weight. It’s perfect for Spey casting on a 9’ rod. The front taper isn’t perfect for Speys but apart from that it’s awesome. The Thunderbolt/TCR taper is also spot on as a longer head.

Cheers!
Paul
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Re: Mel Kriegers 'long roll cast'

#10

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:11 pm

Hi Paul,

Had a quick play with the back handed jump roll today, it always seems to happen on my very first one! It was far too much speed into the D loop with the Haul, without the haul it is fine which is a good thing! :cool: I'll just have to think to myself 'less force!' On my first one. Thank you, Paul.

I do too, i always fish the hang, you have to especially if you are in a boat!

So i would imagine that the head for the #6 would be 70 and a half feet. I think they just call it the expert distance, although i must say that i have not seen a green version of this for about 10 years, in fact, even the competition version can be tricky to get hold of. I do love the MED, and now i love your thunderbolt line! As you say, it's perfect once you give it a stretch, and i fish with this line now.

All the best!

Nick
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