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\|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm
by nicholasfmoore
Hi Everyone,

I realise that i am opening a can of worms here because some of the concepts are quite old! I do realise that this is mostly style, but i don't think that is all there is to it.

1. Push Vs pull through (Mel K); as i understand it, he described a pull through stroke that involved leading with the elbow. I have also seen him demonstrate the pull through stroke with a sort of side cast, and this is what i would describe as late rotation (\\\|/). I do think he was trying to cover two styles of casting, maybe the 'lefty' style and the elbow forward style. I do use a 'pull through' stroke as i describe it, i don't think 'straight line out' i think 'pull that damn rod down, down down down!' a bit like the butt of the rod was a 50kg weight, or banging my fist on a table that is chest height, or throw it like a javelin (for distance). Maybe Mel was getting at people overpowering casts which can cause wide loops, or even applying the force too early in the stroke for distance?

2. Rod rotation, force application; This is where i start to second guess myself, and i think it is a mixture of style and rod. If it's a tip action rod, i personally have to move my hand VERY quickly, and use a large stroke length to achieve this speed, However on other rods i can get maximum bend by using this pull through (elbow forward, hand up and down etc) stroke. Of course if we max out on rod bend, opening the arc will create a larger loop, so to gain more line speed after we have maxed out the rod flex, we have to move the tip faster, and of course use a lightning fast haul.

3. What are your thoughts on applying force through the rotation, rather than at the end? For good long distance roll casting i delay the rotation until RIGHT at the end of the stroke to keep the D loop behind the rod, and then i apply the force through the rotation. I also do this for long distance casting too, i use drag and then rotate at the end. Whats your thought on rotating and applying force through the stroke?

As always, thank you for your responses!

All the best

Nick

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:23 pm
by Paul Arden
Ok this is potentially going to be an interesting topic, so let me add 5) I think the second half of rotation ie post-MCL is normally best accomplished without translation.

Perfect I haven’t answered a single question :D

Cheers and good night!
Paul

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:43 pm
by James9118
Nick,

What actual evidence do you have regarding your casting stroke with various outfits? I ask this because often what people think they're doing isn't actually what they are doing in reality. To give an example - if I perform my 'ideal' stroke whilst spoon-casting in front of a mirror (is spoon-casting a SL term? It should be, as I'm sure many do it :D ) then this is very different to what I achieve with a real rod and a long carry. In reality almost all casters rotate throughout, in fact I once had a conversation with Tor (former #5 world champion) where he informed me it was his intention to rotate throughout. I'm not saying it can't be done, Lasse and Peter Hayes have posted various videos that show them to be amongst the latest of the late (when they choose to be), but often people who think they're rotating late actually aren't - especially whilst overhead casting (most people who have learnt to cast a tight loop whilst roll casting do delay the rotation).

James

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:02 pm
by Boisker
I prefer chopstick casting :D

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:05 pm
by Lasse Karlsson
Boisker wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:02 pm
I prefer chopstick casting :D
Love that! Do it with a MPR line shootinghead and hotel hallways are hours of fun 😎

You might get thrown out though.....

Cheers
Lasse

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:35 pm
by bartdezwaan
Interesting topic.
There is a video on YouTube, of Steve Rajeff, about Distance casting. He mentions he rotates throughout the stroke and that late rotation promotes tailing loops.
While I rate Steve very high, I don’t see the advantage of rotating throughout the stroke.
I agree with James that most people probably rotate more than they think. But why would you do it on purpose?

Cheers, Bart

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:17 pm
by John Waters
Hi Bart, I believe Steve delays his rotation until he feels tension on the rod, hence it is not as delineated as the keyboard strokes display. The more I throw rather than cast, the more important I think that is.

John

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:24 am
by Thomas
Hi,
James9118 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:43 pm
In reality almost all casters rotate throughout
Agree. A lot of translation is also in fact slide. But good casters increase the rate of rotation through the stroke. (I don't know if that makes sense - english is not my first language..)

Cheers, Thomas

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:03 am
by Paul Arden
I’ll post this again!
85698245-B690-496C-8D0C-6DEBC7508D50.jpeg
85698245-B690-496C-8D0C-6DEBC7508D50.jpeg (58.28 KiB) Viewed 1470 times
2 and 3 are both delayed rotation. 2 can result in problems. I think what we want for distance is mostly 3.

It’s just that we don’t have the keyboard backslashes to draw it!

Cheers, Paul

Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:11 am
by Thomas
Hi Paul,

OK. 3 is as an example of what I would call rotation throughout the stroke with "increased rate of rotation" (most of the rotation comes in late in the stroke). Semantics then.

Cheers, Thomas