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Shooting heads

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Ré_

Shooting heads

#31

Post by Ré_ » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:51 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote: I also agree with Akos who just told me that a lot of anglers would like to fish the HT with 6wt. lines. But the same blank is labeled as 5wt. Comp. for those geeks who aim for their longest carries and those shootouts on 5wt. lines.
For the average bear I agree a 6wt. label is well choosen for the HT.
The 5wt label is only for the rules of some competitions. I wouldn't recommend any different lines for geeks than for average casters.
Maybe I am missing something in this thread: Bernd says that in an average situation most casters would choose the same line, the others say in different situations most casters would choose different lines. Apples to oranges?
I feel comfortable with a lot of different lines on the same rod. I would have a huge problem if I wouldn't because I had to carry around 10 rods at least.
Maybe as you get further and further from an average situation (wind, heavy fly, competition distance) the personal preferences have a bigger influence on the line (rod) choice. Competition distance is on the absolute edge of flycasting, what could be the reason why 4 to 12 weight rods are used for the same line. Probably the same casters would all choose the same rod for the "Bernd-situation".

Ré_

Shooting heads

#32

Post by Ré_ » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:03 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:Ok, just found that 7,6 ERN TCR 590 in the database along with one of 7,4...

So SL rod is a TCR :pirate:

Cheers
Lasse
It doesn't feel like a Sage at all. I would rather say it has the best of Sage and G-Loomis without the "lifelessness" of Sage rods and the "unuserfriendliness" of the G-Loomis'...

Would it mix things up, if I would say I measured today a blank and my HT, precise to the mm and I have the ERN of 7.8 for the blank and 8.08 for my rod? The problems are: where do you measure the height from the ground? Bottom, middle or top of the blank? That is 8 mm difference. I had 2 support points, the first right before the cork, the other above the reel seat, so cork compression is out of the game. Would I have different results if the first support point would be somewhere at the middle of the grip. I would for sure... :ninja:

Svend
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Shooting heads

#33

Post by Svend » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:22 pm

Hi Bernd :cool:
Bernd Ziesche wrote:But let's take a WF line. 12m head outside the tip while just relaxed (average) false casting a fluff back and forth in no wind conditions. If not a high percentage of fly casters would want the same line weight on the same rod here (and instead all of them want different line weights), would this mean all rod labels recommending a line weight are completely senseless?
No, it just means that the rod rating is a rough recommendation making sure that the guy who all of a sudden gets an itch to try fly fishing, can stop at the next gas station, grab a rod and ask the clerk, who until then didn't even know that there was fishing gear hidden somewhere behind the shelf with porno magazines, which line he should get. The clerks puzzled expression will vanish after a moment or two of browsing through the fly lines which is when he'll reassuringly tell the customer Bill, "Dude, that's a five for a five". Half a package of cigarettes and most of a porno magazine later Bill will find out that he doesn't have a clue how to attach bait to the fly line.

Oh, i know of at least one gas station that sells fly fishing gear, i actually bought my first fly rod there. Yes the one with ERN 10.6. :)


Cheers, Svend

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Shooting heads

#34

Post by Svend » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:25 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:
Svend wrote: i think that connecting intrinsic rod power to specific weights/lengths is absurd.
Cheers, Svend
Hi Svend :)
what do you think about this recommendation:
http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/ ... 20Recs.pdf
Greets
Bernd


I have never cast a spey rod, hence i'm not really qualified to comment on that paper but i like the disclaimer: "Finally, these recommendations are only guidelines as to the correct line weight to be used. RIO Products is not responsible for any rod breakages or if you find the line does not load as you would wish. How a rod loads is a personal feeling and these recommendations are only a guideline."

Cheers, Svend

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Shooting heads

#35

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:31 pm

Ré_ wrote:
Lasse Karlsson wrote:Ok, just found that 7,6 ERN TCR 590 in the database along with one of 7,4...

So SL rod is a TCR :pirate:

Cheers
Lasse
It doesn't feel like a Sage at all. I would rather say it has the best of Sage and G-Loomis without the "lifelessness" of Sage rods and the "unuserfriendliness" of the G-Loomis'...

Would it mix things up, if I would say I measured today a blank and my HT, precise to the mm and I have the ERN of 7.8 for the blank and 8.08 for my rod? The problems are: where do you measure the height from the ground? Bottom, middle or top of the blank? That is 8 mm difference. I had 2 support points, the first right before the cork, the other above the reel seat, so cork compression is out of the game. Would I have different results if the first support point would be somewhere at the middle of the grip. I would for sure... :ninja:
Hi Akos

I've only tried Paul's prototype in Norway, the one I estimated to be 7,5 ;)

Clever guy might measure from the middle of the blank, just above the handle, and have the two support points on the reel seat since that part normally doesn't bend or get into action when casting :pirate:

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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Shooting heads

#36

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:37 pm

[quote="Ré]Maybe I am missing something in this thread: Bernd says that in an average situation most casters would choose the same line, the others say in different situations most casters would choose different lines. Apples to oranges?
[/quote]

Hi Akos

Actually, it's apples to apples when I ask Bernd to recommend me a line for my rod isn't it?

I like my rods to be able to handle alot of different lines, that's why I don't buy the one rod one weight mantra ;) Actually, I know that all rods handle alot of different weights well, it's all down to casters capabilities and personel preference what kind we like in any given situation... :yeahhh:

Cheers
Lasse
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#37

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:51 pm

Hi Svend,
I agree with most of your points.
Lasse Karlsson wrote:Actually, I know that all rods handle alot of different weights well, it's all down to casters capabilities and personel preference
Hi Lasse,
that kind of leads to a question:
Can you recommend a shooting head weight to a fly fisherman asking you for help to find a head for his new rod?

Seems as if you do not believe such recommendations like the RIO one to be very helpful?

I agree that we can cast all kind of lines on our rods. As you have shown in one of your vids casting a "Tarpon line weight" on a (was it a?) 3wt. rod is possible, too.
It's just that I think it feels uncomfortable to many fly fishermen.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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#38

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:04 am

Hi Bernd

I can and I do, but it's a recommendation, and I stress the points regarding it.
I think Simon's recommendations are fine, and I agree with the disclaimer.

But you where saying there's a definit weight that fits, I say it differs :)

Cheers
Lasse
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http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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#39

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:22 am

Hi Lasse,
I didn't (mean to) say there is a definit fit for each rod in general.
My experience is, that all fly fishermen in my lessons ended up choosing the same head weight on a specific rod in a specific situation using a specific fly to be cast.
And that leads me to believe there is an avergae range of rod bend (during casting) that fits (feels) best for a high percentage of fly fishermen. And I think that those recommendations we all give are partially based on that (as on the single circumstances of course).
Again besides all this, a knowlegable caster will always be able to adjust his movements to each rod-line combination, even if it is extreme.

A good example to me is Tarpon fishing. I need a 10 or 11 wt. fly line in order to (comfortable) cast the flies I want to present to the fish. Strength of those lines are excellent. The splash (due to fly line weight) is perfect. Using a 13 wt. fly line would splash away lots of fish. That heavy line is too hard to present splash free close to the fish.
Using an ERN 10 to 11 fly rod forces me into highest necessary concentration during the fight. The smallest mistake and the rod is broken on these large fish. Using a 13 wt. rod gives me much more space here. I feel much relaxter during the (long) fight.
But then again the ERN 13-14 fly rod bends much less during casting when using a 10 or 11 wt. fly line. Sure I can handle that - especially since it is only a few chances to present my fly during the whole day anyway. But casting a 10wt. fly line on an ERN 14 fly rod feels uncomfortable to me. I feel significant more comfortable when using a 10wt. fly rod here.
So I decide for a compromise in using a 11wt. fly line and a 12wt. rod. If you want, I "underline" about one line weight.


Same thing happens when casting the 5wt. MED on the HT. There are stiffer rods (like my 690 SP+) that offer me a longer carry. But casting the whole spectrum of different line lengths from short to long I feel best with the HT. The range of rod bend during the whole spectrum of line length matches perfect for me.

In that kind of feeling for a matching rod-line combination (based on the range of resulting rod bend) I still think a high percentage of fly fishermen are relatively close together. That simply is the result of casting and experimenting with a huge amount of other fly fishermen trying different combinations. And that is also the only reason I can think of why those shooting head recommendations - like the one RIO offers - work fine for many fly fishermen.
Most of my line recommendations to students are based on the average situation since I hardly ever know in what kind of different situations my students may use their rod-line combis in future time. So I make a recommendation based on the feel for a certain range of rod bend I think they will produce by a specific combination of line weight (in relation to length etc.) and rod stiffness in the average situation.

I agree it always can only be a recommendation. But I believe it to be a very good one mostly. :cool: :p

Does that make more sense to you? :cool: ;)
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Shooting heads

#40

Post by Ben_d » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:53 am

Same thing happens when casting the 5wt. MED on the HT. There are stiffer rods (like my 690 SP+) that offer me a longer carry. But casting the whole spectrum of different line lengths from short to long I feel best with the HT. The range of rod bend during the whole spectrum of line length matches perfect for me.
And others will possibly prefer the SLT 690 or the SP690 or the Helios 906 TF Bernd with the same weights of heads you describe. Even rods measuring the same in terms of ERN & AA will feel and bend / un bend differently depending upon build so you cannot tie this "ideal bend" to that data either. Not everyone casts the same when fishing so you cannot have "a correct rod bend" IMO, correct for who? It really doesn't make any sense trying to pin this down as closely as you are.

The Rio doc is not really a good comparison to what you are saying and there is a disclaimer. Also, they are listing built factory rods and give a deep load, light load and, there is a fairly accurate description on their site as to the purpose of the lines in question.

Is this leading up to some grand unified revolutionary theory regarding the rating system Bernd? :D


Cheers

Ben

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