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Shooting heads

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alex vulev
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Shooting heads

#41

Post by alex vulev » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:40 pm

Ben_d wrote: Is this leading up to some grand unified revolutionary theory regarding the rating system Bernd? :D


Cheers

Ben
and what about a paralel /level/ silk fly line, isnt it better for fishing :pirate:
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"

page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly

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Bernd Ziesche
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#42

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:50 pm

Hi Ben ;)
Sorry, there was a small bug in my last post. :blush: It should have been the 6wt. MED I prefer to have on the HT for the whole range of line lengths to be handeled while offering me the best feeling of rod-line corresponding.

This thread to me wasn't about matching the rod to the line, but finding the best line weight for a given rod.
You are right, others prefer different rods for the same line.
The question is, does a high percentage of casters prefer (almost) the same line weight for the given rod?
To me, yes...

To your question... No, it is not, because (I think) we already have a system that does a good job. As Lasse I do believe that most rods will fit fine with the line weight the rod designers recommended. Since you offered to think about different rods that (identical to the HT) are all labeled as 6wt. rods, I think you kind of agree on this?

Let's take an example:
A student will ask me which Barrio SLX fly line to use on the HT fly rod.
On the Barrio website I find:
head length: 10m
WF4F-10 grams, WF5F-12 grams, WF6F-13.6 grams, WF7F-15.2 grams, WF8F-17.5 grams
The HT is quite stiff for a 6wt. rod in my book. ERN is 7,2 and AA 70.

The student probably will not cast with much of overhang but use the head length most of the times.
10 grams I think most fly fishermen would find significant too light on that rod.
12 grams I think still would feel very light to many of us.
17,5 gram I think will feel very heavy (in the average situation) on that rod.

So my recommendation would be in the 6-7 wt. corner for the SLX-HT combination.
Personally I would take the 7wt. here. But I could also think of the 6wt. for little more stiffness, if desired.
Especially on Spey casts (little less bend compared to overhead) I recommend the SLX 7wt. here.

Let's have an additional view to other fly lines:

Tellis offers a new Spey line:
#5 - 14 gram (12m head length)
#6 - 16 gram
#7 - 18 gram
I would recommend to use the 6wt. here (12m is little longer compared to the SLX head).

Loop Oti Stream
#5 - 12 gram (head: 10,8m)
#6 - 14 gram
#7 - 16,5 gram
#8 - 18 gram
I would recommend the 6wt. here. Maybe the 7wt. for a beginner in Spey casting.

So we find 13,6 - 16 gram for a 6wt. head in the length between 10 and 12m here.
All in all that (I think) matches well with the label "6wt." on the HT.

Which head weight would you recommend, Ben (let's talk SLX) and why is that?
(Your 6wt. Helios TF shouldn't be too different from the HT?)

Greets
Bernd

p.s.: Alex, a level line works quite well behind a shooting head :p Otherwise it will have a strong turnover for huge flies if you like.
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Shooting heads

#43

Post by guest » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:56 pm

Hi Bernd

I'm lurking on this thread :ninja:
The question is, does a high percentage of casters prefer (almost) the same line weight for the given rod?
Does this include all levels of proficiency or just experienced casters?

regards

Vince
Bright but shite

IANACI - There’s no such thing as absolutes

Free the Mark One ☝️

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Bernd Ziesche
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#44

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:07 pm

VGB wrote:Hi Bernd

I'm lurking on this thread :ninja:
The question is, does a high percentage of casters prefer (almost) the same line weight for the given rod?
Does this include all levels of proficiency or just experienced casters?

regards

Vince
Hi Vince,
for me: Yes, as long as we talk about the same length of line in the same situation casting the same fly.

Sure the expert may have a little tighter loop. This may cause little more rod bend (if line speed would be identical).
At the same time the beginner will have less efficiency and will probably add little more force in order to reach the same target. All in all I mostly like the same lines as my beginner students, if we talk about the same line length.

What happens is, that beginners often have little less carry (when using bellies of ca. 12m or longer) and therefore might choose uplining a class in order to have little more rod bend here on short line already.
But in regard of a real shooting head: I see best benefits if the caster is able to easily carry the FULL head anyway.

When teaching the double haul I like to add significant extra weight for a quick start into the new technique. But that is for a short lesson no more.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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alex vulev
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#45

Post by alex vulev » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:20 pm

alex vulev wrote:
Ben_d wrote: Is this leading up to some grand unified revolutionary theory regarding the rating system Bernd? :D


Cheers

Ben
and what about a paralel /level/ silk fly line, isnt it better for fishing :pirate:
Bernd Ziesche wrote:
p.s.: Alex, a level line works quite well behind a shooting head :p
yeah, i think it works even better without a SH :p
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"

page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly

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#46

Post by guest » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:25 pm

Thanks Bernd, I'm going back into the shadows :ninja:
Bright but shite

IANACI - There’s no such thing as absolutes

Free the Mark One ☝️

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#47

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:38 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote: Let's take an example:
A student will ask me which Barrio SLX fly line to use on the HT fly rod.
On the Barrio website I find:
head length: 10m
WF4F-10 grams, WF5F-12 grams, WF6F-13.6 grams, WF7F-15.2 grams, WF8F-17.5 grams
The HT is quite stiff for a 6wt. rod in my book. ERN is 7,2 and AA 70.

The student probably will not cast with much of overhang but use the head length most of the times.
10 grams I think most fly fishermen would find significant too light on that rod.
12 grams I think still would feel very light to many of us.
17,5 gram I think will feel very heavy (in the average situation) on that rod.

So my recommendation would be in the 6-7 wt. corner for the SLX-HT combination.
Personally I would take the 7wt. here. But I could also think of the 6wt. for little more stiffness, if desired.
Especially on Spey casts (little less bend compared to overhead) I recommend the SLX 7wt. here.

Let's have an additional view to other fly lines:

Tellis offers a new Spey line:
#5 - 14 gram (12m head length)
#6 - 16 gram
#7 - 18 gram
I would recommend to use the 6wt. here (12m is little longer compared to the SLX head).

Loop Oti Stream
#5 - 12 gram (head: 10,8m)
#6 - 14 gram
#7 - 16,5 gram
#8 - 18 gram
I would recommend the 6wt. here. Maybe the 7wt. for a beginner in Spey casting.

So we find 13,6 - 16 gram for a 6wt. head in the length between 10 and 12m here.
All in all that (I think) matches well with the label "6wt." on the HT.

Which head weight would you recommend, Ben (let's talk SLX) and why is that?
(Your 6wt. Helios TF shouldn't be too different from the HT?)

Greets
Bernd
Hi Bernd

What RIO LT would you suggest to that student? Just so we can have lines according to AFFTA standard in there too :D

BTW. Loop opti stream is only 8-9,5 meters in the head, it's the stillwater that has the 10,8 ;) And you might want to weigh those lines :ninja:

Personally, line choice would depend on the students ability, but I think I would go with 5 all the way here if we're estimating anyway.

Cheers
Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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#48

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:00 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Hi Lasse,
I didn't (mean to) say there is a definit fit for each rod in general.
My experience is, that all fly fishermen in my lessons ended up choosing the same head weight on a specific rod in a specific situation using a specific fly to be cast.
And that leads me to believe there is an avergae range of rod bend (during casting) that fits (feels) best for a high percentage of fly fishermen. And I think that those recommendations we all give are partially based on that (as on the single circumstances of course).
Again besides all this, a knowlegable caster will always be able to adjust his movements to each rod-line combination, even if it is extreme.
Hi Bernd

I can cast the same weight of line and the same fly, and have alot of differetn bends in the rod. What the large majority of flyfishers feel isn't the bend in the rod, they have just been told so...
The large majority also thinks the rod functions only as a big spring, and since a spring works better the more it's bend, they search for the holy bend and look to find it in weight and numbers....
A good example to me is Tarpon fishing. I need a 10 or 11 wt. fly line in order to (comfortable) cast the flies I want to present to the fish. Strength of those lines are excellent. The splash (due to fly line weight) is perfect. Using a 13 wt. fly line would splash away lots of fish. That heavy line is too hard to present splash free close to the fish.
Using an ERN 10 to 11 fly rod forces me into highest necessary concentration during the fight. The smallest mistake and the rod is broken on these large fish. Using a 13 wt. rod gives me much more space here. I feel much relaxter during the (long) fight.
But then again the ERN 13-14 fly rod bends much less during casting when using a 10 or 11 wt. fly line. Sure I can handle that - especially since it is only a few chances to present my fly during the whole day anyway. But casting a 10wt. fly line on an ERN 14 fly rod feels uncomfortable to me. I feel significant more comfortable when using a 10wt. fly rod here.
So I decide for a compromise in using a 11wt. fly line and a 12wt. rod. If you want, I "underline" about one line weight.
So a 13 weight line splashes significantly more than a 11 weight :oh:
Damn they are spooky those big herrings, wonder how people actually manage to catch them when they aren't good casters

ERN 10 is normally a rod the maker wrote 8 on.... So I can't really follow you in the above :)
Same thing happens when casting the 5wt. MED on the HT. There are stiffer rods (like my 690 SP+) that offer me a longer carry. But casting the whole spectrum of different line lengths from short to long I feel best with the HT. The range of rod bend during the whole spectrum of line length matches perfect for me.
That goes back to the thread on the old board about max carry and stuff. Remember for me I carry the most with the rod I'm most comfortable with, personal preference you know :pirate:
In that kind of feeling for a matching rod-line combination (based on the range of resulting rod bend) I still think a high percentage of fly fishermen are relatively close together. That simply is the result of casting and experimenting with a huge amount of other fly fishermen trying different combinations. And that is also the only reason I can think of why those shooting head recommendations - like the one RIO offers - work fine for many fly fishermen.
Most of my line recommendations to students are based on the average situation since I hardly ever know in what kind of different situations my students may use their rod-line combis in future time. So I make a recommendation based on the feel for a certain range of rod bend I think they will produce by a specific combination of line weight (in relation to length etc.) and rod stiffness in the average situation.

I agree it always can only be a recommendation. But I believe it to be a very good one mostly. :cool: :p

Does that make more sense to you? :cool: ;)
Greets
Bernd
Yup, you recommend a weight and length based on your personal preference just like anybody else :)

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

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#49

Post by Barrio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:08 pm

Hi Bernd

Hmmm, sorry, I don't agree .... I read your thoughts on the SLX and decided to take them out for a cast this afternoon with my Hot Torpedo.

I preferred the Barrio SLX #6 on the rod for both overhead and roll casting.

Best wishes
Mike
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#50

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:06 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote: What RIO LT would you suggest to that student? Just so we can have lines according to AFFTA standard in there too :D

BTW. Loop opti stream is only 8-9,5 meters in the head, it's the stillwater that has the 10,8
Hi Lasse,
I took the weight-length combis of the Opti Stillwater. Line's name was mixed up. Loop offers the same weight-class combi for the Opti Stream with the shorter head. Personally I tend to recommend a gramm less if the head is 8,5m (6wt. Stream) instead of 10,5m (6wt. Stillwater).

Telli's lines are AFFTA conform following his measurements.

RIO LT WF 6wt. 16,5 gram head in 14,6m head length

Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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