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Shooting heads

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Lasse Karlsson
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Shooting heads

#11

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

[quote="ennio"]Thanks for your answers, and sorry for my delay

Bernd, I didn't realise that you would choose different weights of head depending upon length: I had naively thought it would simply be about overall weight.

I had wanted to ask what is the "right amount of bend" for a given rod: I thought that my shooting head question would get me the answer. I was wrong :)

As an example I have a Scott S4s 9'0" #8 and also a RIO Outbound WF8F 330gr/21g: this feels like an efficient casting combination (I haven't fished with it yet). I also have a Shakespeare Odyssey Travel 9'0" 6/7. I had been casting the Barrio SLX #6 13.6g on this rod and again that feels efficient.

I was surprised the other day when I tried the 21g Outbound on the Shakey - it felt just as good as it does on the Scott. So my Shakey feels good with both a 13.6g SLX and a 21g Outbound ... which confuses me :whistle:

This got me wondering how I would choose an optimum lineweight / optimum amount of bend for a given rod. (I appreciate that any rod will cast a range of lineweights; on a fishing day I might use my 8'6" #5 rod to cast the same line/leader/dry fly to fish anywhere between ten feet and seventy feet from me)

[quote]


Hi Andrew

A couple of points:

If you keep the weight the same regardless of length, you could end up trying to throw big flies on a long head made out of a very light AFFTA class line. That's making it hard on yourself, and shootingheads are generally about making things a bit easier ;)

There's really no "right amount of bend" for any given rod, it's personal preference, and you choose largly how much bend there's in it, depending on the speed you're casting. The weight of the line hasn't got as much impact as most think it has. As you can see, Bernd and I prefer different weights for about the same length. It doesn't mean that either one of us has hit it right, it just measn that we have different preferences regarding shootingheads. We also have it for WF's (which really just is a wannabe shootinghead anyway...)

[vimeo]54380731[/vimeo]
Rod ERN 5,9 AA 72
Shootinghead 17 grams 10,5 meters...

The optimum weight/bend thing is a red herring if you ask me :666: And largly comes from the notion that a rod is a spring and nothing else, load it and watch it fire the line away.

I'm not surpriced that your shakey felt fine with either line, there's after all a pretty broad spectrum for any given rod. most just do not like to hear that, it's easier if they can fit it into nice tight little boxes, this rod casts best with 16,57820974 gram, this one with 19,3847593 and this one is clearly under rated, it says 5 but it casts much better with a 8 line.... :oh:

Try banging on a big ugly fly and see which line you like better, then try a dryfly and see which one you think gives the gentlest presentation :upside:

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685

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Svend
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Shooting heads

#12

Post by Svend »

Good post Lasse, i just deleted some of my own post since it just reflected the same points.
I use 9m/14-14.5 gram of intermediate line for most of my coastal fishing these days. My rod is a TCX 6 wt (ERN 8.5)

I think this just shows that one can't really use intrinsic rod power to arrive at an "ideal" head weight. There's too much personal preference involved. In fact that's kind of backwards as it would be better to choose a head for a given scenario and find a "personal" rod for that line, like Ben is suggesting in an earlier post. But even then people would go for different heads for the same conditions. And rightfully so imho.

Personally i always opt for the lightest and shortest head for my distance requirements, fly size and fishing conditions, which for me results in the above mentioned measurements. But it also means that i use the same rod with a 8.5m/18 gram super fast sinker for a different situation or a DT4 for dry flies or a MED6 for long range indicator nymphing etc.

PS. It looks like i prefer rather short and light heads, but then i learned to flycast with an ERN 10.6 rod and a 9.2m/13.5 gram shootinghead on some flimsy mono shootingline. I remember that it took me quite a while before i had that going anywhere. Oh and the manufacturer wrote a six on the blank and i bought it because it was on sale. :blush: :D

Cheers, Svend
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Lasse Karlsson
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#13

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi Svend

Pretty much agree :)

Cheers
Lasse

Ps. I learned to flycast with a noodle, ERN 4,6 and a DT 5 why do I like a twice as high ERN now for the same line :oh:
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Ben_d
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Shooting heads

#14

Post by Ben_d »

I've spent the last 4 months playing around with pretty much only heads. For fishing the approach is what I posted above, these are mainly used for Spey casting heads in my case. For pure distance however I tend to prefer a stiffer rod for shorter heads cut to a given weight of line. Taking 27g floating heads which is what I'm practising with just now, I'm happiest casting a head about 50' with a rod of ERN ~15, same weight spread over about 60' feels better for me on a rod of ERN ~12. Do both rods "bend" about the same when I hit it? Possibly but what is important to me is how far away the fluff lands from my feet. I'd love to know the answer to the question that Alan Maughan posted on the old board though!

Go chop some lines up Andrew and get all the rods out of the cupboard, I've learnt more in the last four months playing about with heads than I have in the past two years battering long lengths of line about :) Lee Cummings told me that heads were the future some time back, he was probably right. What Lasse has said right IMO, it's not about having the right amount of bend in the rod, its about having a rod that bends enough for the way you hit it with a given length / weight of line.


Cheers

Ben
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Bernd Ziesche
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#15

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Bernd Ziesche wrote: Anyway I would recommend ca. 19 gramm in 10-11m length in slow sinking.
It's a MSX Black Diamond #6, I generally use a 11,6 meter intermediate shootinghead weighing 17 grams on it.

Incidently, there's a thread on a Danish forum regarding a shootinghead for a Orvis helios tipflex 7, and the two camps go either for a 18 gram head for it or a 16 gram head on it. Think they would have a fit if someone said 19-20 grams :pirate:
Interesting to notice the regional differences amongst coastal fishers :)
Hi Lasse,
there are two important factors I would need to know, before I agree on regional differncies.
1. Are you using a floating head? If so I would recommend 1 gramm less.
2. Are you casting the "typical danish Magnus sized flies"? If so I too prefer little less weight and instead have a little longer head on a (then) stiffer rod.
Floating line and smaller flies (than mine) and I would be close to your 17 grams, too.
My flies are in the 1,0-1,5 gramm area andmostly they are quite huge compared to magnus flies in size 6-8. Therefore I prefer to have a little more weight but don't want too stiff rods since the fish are not that strong figthers.

I am using the Sage SP896 for many many years now. In the beginning I used 18 gram heads always - floating ones and using small flies that was. Now changing to much heavier flies and sinking heads I prefer to have around 20 gram on it.
Maybe some Danish guys in that forum have discovered the bigger flies, too? :cool:
Greets
Bernd
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The first cast is always the best cast.
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Bernd Ziesche
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#16

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Lasse Karlsson wrote: There's really no "right amount of bend" for any given rod, it's personal preference, and you choose largly how much bend there's in it, depending on the speed you're casting. The weight of the line hasn't got as much impact as most think it has. As you can see, Bernd and I prefer different weights for about the same length. It doesn't mean that either one of us has hit it right, it just measn that we have different preferences regarding shootingheads.
Hi Lasse (and Ben and Svend)
that is an interesting point to me. In one way I do agree with it.
But then again I held a serious amount of courses about shooting head casting during the past years. I always offered to cut down a shooting head (step by step and trying it on every step) to match it for one of my rods.
In the end all participants tried a series of different head weights (same length, same density, same fly) and everyone was asked to find his best matching head. Yet not a single student ever came to a different result!
Isn't that quite amazing if we all have our own (different) preferences?

I believe that often we have not really included all details which come into play for matching a shooting head weight like:
- head length
- density
- profile
- fly weight and size
So I think often we have compared apples and oranges.

In my courses I kept all other parameters equal but changing head weights in just 1 gram steps. And yet all participants decided for the same head.

And then so many students who try my fav rod-line combination on my 6wt. Streamdance for example have a "wow". No one ever told me to have mismatched it. Shouldn't that happen sooner or later if we all have different preferencies?

Greets
Bernd
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Paul Arden
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#17

Post by Paul Arden »

I think if Mike Conner had ever been on one of your courses, Bernd, you would have had a difference in opinion! His shooting heads were based on a brick approach. Rather interesting actually.

Cheers, Paul
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Ben_d
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Shooting heads

#18

Post by Ben_d »

Bernd,

I'm really not sure what to make of that post mate.

For a fishing situation, I consider in the following order.

Density required
Size & weight of gear (tips & flies) to be carried
Space available (considered with the above)
Main type casting, Spey or overhead

So yes, I do consider all the above points and this applies whether I am making heads for use in the salt or for single hand salmon fishing or for chucking big streamers at trout. Surely without considering the above, the chances of getting things right are at best 50:50?

My sea trout distance outfit is another example...... I like my short cut head on a rod rated for a #12, ERN approx 15. Two of the guys I cast with think the rod is far too stiff, one other likes it. Lasse prefers a much softer rod for a similar head to my knowledge. And, I throw a #5 GT140 further on a 909 Helios 2 than I do on a TCR5, again only one other I cast with can get this to work well, for me it works very well but surely, the rod bend must be wrong? Am I missing something Bernd or could it be that there is not actually one "ideal bend" for any one rod or caster? :D

Cheers

Ben
Svend
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Shooting heads

#19

Post by Svend »

Hi Bernd it's good to see that you have a different opinion. That's always a good thing since it makes for a more interesting discussion! :)

Assuming that you and your students adjusted the shootingheads on grass i'd say that you arrived at an preferred weight for, well grass casting and fluff flies. In my opinion the heads need to be fitted to actual fishing, in essence casting style, fly size, sink rate, wading depth, wind, waves, minimal false casting etc.

Actually i don't think that cutting down a line in order to get an "ideal" head is a good method at all because there's a psychological barrier to cutting the head too short since there's no way of adding line. You also can't go for shorter and heavier. Because of this i think that this method mostly leads to rather long and heavy heads unless the line was too heavy per length to begin with in which case it will lead to a short and heavy head.

Bernd Ziesche wrote: Yet not a single student ever came to a different result!
Isn't that quite amazing if we all have our own (different) preferences?
Yes that is amazing because it doesn't reflect what i'm seeing people actually use at all. There seems to be a wide variety of preferences on the coast and some people even change head weight/length according to the conditions or even mood.

Bernd Ziesche wrote: And then so many students who try my fav rod-line combination on my 6wt. Streamdance for example have a "wow". No one ever told me to have mismatched it. Shouldn't that happen sooner or later if we all have different preferencies?
Could it be that your students feel that their instructors outfit somehow just got to be perfect. Or that their instructor failed to inform them that there just isn't such a thing as a perfectly matched outfit that would suit everyone and any conditions?



PS. I use size 4 weighted 7-13cm (i just measured them, how nerdy is that) pattegrisen - samsoe killer hybrids more often than not now. All cast with above mentioned head and stripped fast, employing the stripping technique you taught me. Your demonstration of fly speed was an eye opener for me.


Cheers, Svend who has cut more lines and owns more shootingheads than he cares to admit. :blush:
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Bernd Ziesche
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#20

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Morning guys,
am not sure if I didn't get your points or if you didn't get mine? :D

Of course we have all kind of different rod- line combinations availble along our fishings. Sure that is for good reasons.

My point was, if Lasse sais he is using a different shooting head weight for a specific rod stiffness compared to me, then maybe him and me did not yet take into account that I am fishing very heavy flies at the end of a sinking head while maybe he is using little smaller (less heavy) flies at the end of a floating head. And maybe I want my average head to be little extra strong cause I often fish directly into the wind while maybe Lasse prefers side winds mostly. These things can already make the whole weight + length difference. But that does not have to mean that in the same situation using the same rod and fly Lasse and I really would want to use a 2 gram difference in shooting head weight.

My experience is that most of the desired differences are based on the circumstances more than different feelings for a specific rod - line combination in a specific situation.

Let's assume we all would stay on the same field presenting our fluff to the target with a 5wt. TCR between medium and high distance using the 3M MED. A 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 weight would be available. Would we all prefer different weighted lines here? Or would we maybe all end up liking the same line - rod combination while having the same purpose?

I think a high percentage would choose the same line in the end :cool: .
Of course changing the purpose might change the main choice of line then...

Greets
Bernd
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