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Shooting heads

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Bernd Ziesche
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Shooting heads

#51

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:53 pm

Barrio wrote: Hmmm, sorry, I don't agree ....
I preferred the Barrio SLX #6 on the rod for both overhead and roll casting.
Hi Mike,
no need to disagree: ;)
Bernd Ziesche wrote: So my recommendation would be in the 6-7 wt. corner for the SLX-HT combination.
Personally I would take the 7wt. here. But I could also think of the 6wt. for little more stiffness, if desired.
Especially on Spey casts (little less bend compared to overhead) I recommend the SLX 7wt. here.
I cast fine with the 6wt., too. Most of my students prefered the 7wt. though - that was especially for non overhead casting and learning double hauling. Both lines are quite close together:
13,6 gram on the 6wt. and 15,2 gram on the 7wt.
So no problem in a general recommendation for the 6wt. or the 7wt. here in my book.

Well, we end up at he same point and don't recommend a 5 wt. or a 8 wt. line here. And I think that is because we know for many of us those lines would feel very light or very heavy.
So we try to match our recommendations not only on what we personally want but what we think should work for most people. Just like Lasse would take the casting level of his student into account.

Looks to me like we end up in a +/- 1 gram range for a general recommenation window in relation to the rod stiffness, Mike. That matches very well with all my experience in adjusting shooting head weights with students.
If 18 gram is prefered 16g and 20g shoots the head out of student's focus immediately. Even for those having no experience at all here that was. Most could feel a 1 gram difference (all else being equal) right from the beginning.

Lasse of course is right in recommending to check weigths of full lines either. For shooting head fishermen that is very common since long time in my experience.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Lasse Karlsson
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#52

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:01 pm

Hi Bernd

Yup, Tellis's lines are supposed to be on the high mark for what is allowed, and then beef up like the old Pounch from Guideline. I'm looking forward to trying them out anyhow.

Tellis Btw. had a very cool idea for labeling his rods, something aboiut what kind of bend you prefered and then a lineclass to suit ;)

And cool that you would pick the 6 LT, since the HT is on the softer side for a 5 for me, I would definetly pick the 5 for it :)

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

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Ben_d
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Shooting heads

#53

Post by Ben_d » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:19 pm

This thread to me wasn't about matching the rod to the line, but finding the best line weight for a given rod.
You are right, others prefer different rods for the same line.


Bernd, is finding the "best" line weight for a given rod not ultimately the same as finding a rod that suits a given line weight?

With the SLX 13.6g suited most #6 rods we tried the protos on, the 15.2g felt a little heavy for most casters on overhead casts but Spey'd O.K for some particularly with heavy tips and flies. The 12g felt really good on most faster #6 rods when cast short & off the tip, the 13.6g suits most modern faster rods rated for a #6 line with the entire head out. I don't think there is anything in the above paragraph that is that unusual. But I'm sure I could get the same bend in the rod with any of the above weights of SLX on my Helios 906 or the HT depending upon how hard I cast and the arc used!

Cheers

Ben

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Shooting heads

#54

Post by guest » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:58 am

Another lurkers question :ninja:
Looks to me like we end up in a +/- 1 gram range for a general recommenation window in relation to the rod stiffness,
I'm assuming that you are talking about the head being fully out, how much length of running line does that +/-1 gram equate to?

regards

Vince
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IANACI - There’s no such thing as absolutes

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Barrio
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#55

Post by Barrio » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:47 am

Hi Bernd

My second preference for a Barrio SLX on my Hot Torpedo would be the WF5F, so WF5F 12g and WF6F 13.6g for me.

Best wishes
Mike
Barrio Fly Lines : At the heart of your fishing ..... lies a great fly line!

Svend
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Shooting heads

#56

Post by Svend » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:35 pm

Hi Bernd, i know that you are doing it with the best of intentions, but i really fail to see why you're attempting to establish as rigid a rule as you are. It looks like you're trying to use your personal experience to suggest an ideal rod to line ratio to someone else. And to me that's like if a cook were using his experience to recommend me a meal at a restaurant without knowing what i like or even how hungry i am.
Moreover your, and apparently your client's preference to combine a TCX-6 or similar rod with a 20g sinking head does not correlate with what i see people actually use on that rod or rods of comparable stiffness for that matter. If anything it seems like most are using 14g 10ish meter shootingheads, some use 16g of similar length. Lasse uses a really long head, you prefer it really heavy, and i like really short. I also see more and less weight and length than that occasionally, plus there's a trend towards the shooting biased full lines like the Guideline Coastal or the Outbound short. Oh and some like front loaded heads, others prefer rear loaded. Many use mostly level. No consensus, no golden rule.

Also i don't buy into the 20 gram for wind and big flies idea. Technically any of the more widely used shootingheads can turn over anything you'd ever want to throw at a seatrout in any wind. Just remember, all of the shootingheads we've been discussing so far would rate #8 or above according to the AFFTA industry standard.

Cheers, Svend

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Bernd Ziesche
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#57

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:07 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote: And cool that you would pick the 6 LT, since the HT is on the softer side for a 5 for me, I would definetly pick the 5 for it :)
Hi Lasse,
a while ago I looked up CCS datas (CCS website) for all 5wt. labeled rods:
ERN 2,7 minimum (Fenwick)
ERN 7,7 max (Dan Craft)
ERN 5,4 avg.
HT (7,2-7,5) seems to be a pretty stiff 5wt. labeled rod when talking about the whole stiffness range for these category of fly rods (according to the CCS database). You measured the 590 TCX with ERN 7,1 (according to the SL database). Yet I don't really see why you would add these rods to the edge of soft rods?
What is a Sage SLT or XP 5wt. labeled rod for you?

Hi Mike,
we might have to take into account which flies will be hanging on the end of our lines.
I would recommend the 6wt. SLX (for the HT) when presenting smaller flies and I personally might even prefer the 5wt. SLX when presenting small dry flies to spooky fish. So we may already be exactly on the same page here.
Casting heavier flies streamers (maybe weighted or just bigger streamers) I would recommend the 6-7 wt. range.
Since here most of my students throw some pretty heavy stuff I tend to 6-7wt. (7wt. for beginners).

Hi Vince,
castng shooting heads mostly means not to have much of overhang. I was only referring to the shooting head weight itself.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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#58

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:21 pm

Ben_d wrote:
This thread to me wasn't about matching the rod to the line, but finding the best line weight for a given rod.
You are right, others prefer different rods for the same line.


Bernd, is finding the "best" line weight for a given rod not ultimately the same as finding a rod that suits a given line weight?
Hi Ben,
that is an interesting question and I think it is not as easy to answer as it may seem?

In Norway (like Svend said) we saw all kind of fly rods in the stiffness range between 5 and 11 wt. (according to the rod label) to throw a 5wt. MED fly line.
Now let's imagine we all would have to take the same rod but have free choice in line weight. Let's take Lasse's TCX 690.
How many different line weights would we have seen when talking about the MED?
I don't think we would have seen too much of a range in line weight. But I might be wrong? :)

We are on the same page in all other points.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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#59

Post by guest » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:46 pm

Thanks Bernd

As you know I am but an egg at this stuff. Something Grunde said has stuck in my mind and I have been chewing it over for a while:
My impression is that for a given cast good casters aim for the same speed profile for a wide range of rod actions. The force is adopted to match the speed profile rather than the other way around (within limits of course). (I also think the "adapting the stroke to the frequency of the rod" idea is bullshit, at least when talking about the speed of the stroke.) In my (now very old) high speed video study, both casters had almost identical speed profiles using the T&T Paradigm and the Sage TCR rod..
.

He added a clarification:
The "speed profile" is the speed the caster moves the rod handle through the casting stroke. This includes both rotation and translation (i.e. rotation plus translation).
I am not sure whether he meant that both casters had the same speed profile for a rod type or that the speed profile is always the same but the distance changes. I think it is the latter but he is very elusive :pirate:

regards

Vince
Bright but shite

IANACI - There’s no such thing as absolutes

Free the Mark One ☝️

Ré_

Shooting heads

#60

Post by Ré_ » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:02 pm

My go to line on the HT for asp and zander is the 6wt SLX and I cast pretty big stuff with it (works like a wanna be shooting head... :) ), but I wouldn't put a 7wt on it. The rod could handle it for sure but I wouldn't feel like I am in control. I am a notorious underliner though. :cool:
5wt SLX or 5wt GT125 are also a good match.

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