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Shooting heads

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Bernd Ziesche
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Shooting heads

#61

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:14 pm

Svend wrote: Also i don't buy into the 20 gram for wind and big flies idea. Technically any of the more widely used shootingheads can turn over anything you'd ever want to throw at a seatrout in any wind. Just remember, all of the shootingheads we've been discussing so far would rate #8 or above according to the AFFTA industry standard.
Hi Svend :)
I am really not trying to establish anything like a fixed head weight for a particular fly rod.
Besides that quite a few others have already done this:
http://www.troutcontrol.de/DIE-TABELLE
And a lot of people are using these recommendations.

All am saying is, that there is a realtionship between rod stiffness, the resistance the shooting head will offer during acceleration (mainly based on head weight + length + density + profile) and the range of rod bend we will have during casting. That relationship has significant effect on how a line feels to cast with a particular rod (especially in regard of loading and unloading of the rod).
If this relationship wouldn't be for real I don't think we could make any recommendation for a line-rod combination at all. But in fact all rod designers do give a recommendation. Stiffness increases = recommended line weight increases.
If some people prefer 14 and some 16 gram heads on the same rod it of course might be that they just prefer different feelings or simply cast differently (loop shapes and line speed) and therefore will have different feelings for the loading and unloading of the same rod and head as well. 2 gram is in my +/-1 range anyway. But honestly my first question to those fly fishermen would be about the length, density and profile of those heads. And I have a feeling there might come differencies into play here. :cool:
Standing on grass casting the same kind of heads but different in weights I never had people choosing head weights varying in the 14 to 18 gram range for example. Indeed the difference between 14 and 18 is really huge in feeling.
But again let's say we talk about 14 gram on 9m and 18 gram on 12m. Now that is a complete different story. 16 gram on 12m might feel similar to 14 gram on 9m. 18 gram is + 2 gram though. So it would be in the +/-1 gram range here again.
If the 14g-9m head would be floating and the 18g-12m slow sinking that would put the range of feel even closer.

Offering one fly rod and different head weights in a range between 14 and 20 gram (all else being equal) I am pretty sure we would get the picture of the "Gaußsche Verteilung" when letting 100 fly fishermen choose their fav combination.
Maybe Lasse would be on the left side and Bernd on the right side though :p :D But I wouldn't wonder if we would have something like 80% in the 16-18 gram section.

At least I agree with you that without specifying length, density, profile, fly and the type of cast (over the tip or under the tip) the fav weight range is much bigger for the same rod.
So yes, I agree with you without these details it soon will be a pretty rough recommendation.

Might we get closer together here? :D :cool: :p
Best
Bernd

p.s.: AFFTA 8 = 13,6 gram on a 9m head. Casting a Sea trout fly of 1,2-1,5 gram is no fun at all for me. Actually I would call it almost to be senseless :p :cool: . Casting the same fly with a head of 20 gram is awesome. In my experience it gets pretty rough below 18 gram (9-12m length) when casting 1,2-1,5 gram flies. 0,5-0,8 gram is fine with 16 gram or higher.
1,5 gram fly is really a heavy bitch on my 18 gram heads!
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Lasse Karlsson
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Shooting heads

#62

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:31 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote: Hi Lasse,
a while ago I looked up CCS datas (CCS website) for all 5wt. labeled rods:
ERN 2,7 minimum (Fenwick)
ERN 7,7 max (Dan Craft)
ERN 5,4 avg.
HT (7,2-7,5) seems to be a pretty stiff 5wt. labeled rod when talking about the whole stiffness range for these category of fly rods (according to the CCS database). You measured the 590 TCX with ERN 7,1 (according to the SL database). Yet I don't really see why you would add these rods to the edge of soft rods?
What is a Sage SLT or XP 5wt. labeled rod for you?

Greets
Bernd

Hi Bernd

I just went through a CCS database, lowest 5 : ERN 4,9 and highest 5: ERN 9,0 avg of 30 labelled 5 rods in that database i ERN 6,4 :) I guess it depends on which database you go through. Did you use superbob's or SL? And I measured the TCX 5 to 7,1 on one rod and 7,4 on another ;)

And as I said before, it's all down to personal preference, I know use a rod that says 6 above the handle for the fishing where I use a line rated 5, a few years back I would have used a rod where it said 5 above the handle for the same fishing, but my preference has changed :cool: Actually if we go one and a half decade back I used a rod where it said 4 above the handle for that kind of fishing :yeahhh:

And yes both the SLT and the XP fall in my soft rod category, that is MY preference.... Your milage may vary....

Incidently, when shootingheads for a TCX 690 or similar comes up on Danish forums, consensus usually goes towards 14-15 grams for a standard headweight, and most people say that more weight and the rod looses it's crispness :) Guess that goes back to the regional difference too.

Cheers
Lasse
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Bernd Ziesche
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Shooting heads

#63

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:42 pm

VGB wrote:
My impression is that for a given cast good casters aim for the same speed profile for a wide range of rod actions.
.
Hi Vince,
rod action is where the rod bends. As long as the stiffness is the same I doubt we will see much of a difference anyway.

Besides that, I think most good casters match line speed, loop shape and trajectory to the situation.
The same situation requires the same shape, speed and trajectory.
But if we talk about comparing a very soft rod and a very stiff rod here, I think most casters would have little tighter loops and little higher line speed on the stiff rod.

Comparing rods having just small differencies in stiffness (ERN 7-8) I don't think we will see much of a difference.

There was an old saying: We match the arc to the amount of bend.
It as Mark who first mentioned we adjust the arc mainly to the desired line speed. And that is spot on.
Sure we have wider arcs on bamboo rods compared to stiff graphite sticks... But that does not mean we match arc to bend in every single cast.

Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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#64

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:49 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Now let's imagine we all would have to take the same rod but have free choice in line weight. Let's take Lasse's TCX 690.
How many different line weights would we have seen when talking about the MED?
I don't think we would have seen too much of a range in line weight. But I might be wrong? :)

We are on the same page in all other points.
Greets
Bernd
Hi Bernd

If we all had to throw the same rod for ultimate distance, the line choice of MED would be very easy, all would choose the MED 8 or 9 :D Heavier goes further :pirate: But they would probably have to reconsider the seatrout distance thing as we would be throwing lighter lines there :glare:

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#65

Post by guest » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:07 pm

Hi Bernd

I not sure we are talking about the same thing but I will wind my neck in so I do not disrupt this thread. maybe we can re-visit it at another time?

regards

Vince
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Bernd Ziesche
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#66

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:18 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote: I just went through a CCS database, lowest 5 : ERN 4,9 and highest 5: ERN 9,0 avg of 30 labelled 5 rods in that database i ERN 6,4 :) I guess it depends on which database you go through. Did you use superbob's or SL?
Incidently, when shootingheads for a TCX 690 or similar comes up on Danish forums, consensus usually goes towards 14-15 grams for a standard headweight, and most people say that more weight and the rod looses it's crispness :) Guess that goes back to the regional difference too.
Hi Lasse,
I choosed the superbob's db. SL probabl would be a lot of pretty stiff 5wt. rods since a lot of Sexyloopers are into 5wt. distance stuff. Same goes for coastal Sea trout area. I usually never find a 5wt. SLX or XP along the coast. IF I find 5wt. labels, then they are on pretty stiff rods in order to throw heads around 16-20 gram. Not much here would go below that weight.
I just looked up the German Sea trout forum for the TCX 6wt.. All recommendations stay inbetween 16 to 19 gram. 19 gram was especially for casting significant heavier flies.
I have tested the TCX 3 months ago with a bunch of heads. I prefered weights between 17,5 and 19 gram depending on length (9-12m) and density (float to Sink 1-2).
Greets
Bernd
p.s.: ERN 9 and a 5wt. label was on a 5wt broomstick of Alejandro? :D :p
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#67

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:30 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote: If we all had to throw the same rod for ultimate distance, the line choice of MED would be very easy, all would choose the MED 8 or 9 :D Heavier goes further :pirate:
Let's imagine MED would be available upto AFFTA 15.
Still the heaviest one?

I think we would end up around 7 to 8 mainly. Would have to try. I think there would come a point around a 9wt. where it results in too much of rod bend to be most effective anymore.
And that is exactly what we do with shooting heads mostly. At least along the coast that is... We choose the heaviest weight which still feels not too heavy in order to cast furthest. Would you agree here?
I agree on heavier goes further. That is why I like heavy heads for huge flies into the wind. It goes further in my experience.
Yes, I can increase line speed for the lighter line. But air resistance increases in square to that as we know.

Most "impressive" casting I ever saw was a group of TLT experts trying to cast my pike flies at the end of 4 to 5 wt. lines while I was using a 27 gram head. Sure I was happy with them having the strongest religion I have ever met yet. :cool:

Cheers
B
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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#68

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:03 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:
Lasse Karlsson wrote: I just went through a CCS database, lowest 5 : ERN 4,9 and highest 5: ERN 9,0 avg of 30 labelled 5 rods in that database i ERN 6,4 :) I guess it depends on which database you go through. Did you use superbob's or SL?
Incidently, when shootingheads for a TCX 690 or similar comes up on Danish forums, consensus usually goes towards 14-15 grams for a standard headweight, and most people say that more weight and the rod looses it's crispness :) Guess that goes back to the regional difference too.
Hi Lasse,
I choosed the superbob's db. SL probabl would be a lot of pretty stiff 5wt. rods since a lot of Sexyloopers are into 5wt. distance stuff. Same goes for coastal Sea trout area. I usually never find a 5wt. SLX or XP along the coast. IF I find 5wt. labels, then they are on pretty stiff rods in order to throw heads around 16-20 gram. Not much here would go below that weight.
I just looked up the German Sea trout forum for the TCX 6wt.. All recommendations stay inbetween 16 to 19 gram. 19 gram was especially for casting significant heavier flies.
I have tested the TCX 3 months ago with a bunch of heads. I prefered weights between 17,5 and 19 gram depending on length (9-12m) and density (float to Sink 1-2).
Greets
Bernd
p.s.: ERN 9 and a 5wt. label was on a 5wt broomstick of Alejandro? :D :p
Hi Bernd

ERN 9 was a norwegian brand, don't think Alejandro had anything to do with it, but if he did, I would like a new tip :p

Actually it's a nice 5 but a bit on the heavy side:

[vimeo]14810712[/vimeo]

Doesn't bend as much as a ERN 5,4 though...

[vimeo]14810209[/vimeo]

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Lasse
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#69

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:07 pm

Ben_d wrote: With the SLX 13.6g suited most #6 rods we tried the protos on, the 15.2g felt a little heavy for most casters on overhead casts but Spey'd O.K for some particularly with heavy tips and flies.
Barrio wrote: My second preference for a Barrio SLX on my Hot Torpedo would be the WF5F, so WF5F 12g and WF6F 13.6g for me.
Ré_ wrote:but I wouldn't put a 7wt on it.
Nobody recommends a 4wt. = 10 gram.
5wt. seems still ok for advanced casting level = 12 gram.
6wt. is the main recommendation = 13,6 gram.
7wt. seems to be a no mostly already = 15,2 gram (mine are 15,0 / 15,2 / 15,3 = spot on, Mike ;) ).

So are we talking about a 12 to 15 gram range matching for over the tip, below the tip, smaller flies, heavier flies, little different winds? I am pretty sure the range would decrease in constant testing conditions.
And who knows, we might end up in a +/-1 gram range that we like to recommend based on the HT (mainly) stiffness.
13 +/- 1 gram would match for 90% of the postings here.
I find that quite interesting :cool: :p

I should add mostly I was using the SLX 7 wt. on my 690SP+ rods I like to offer to students. That rod is a bit stiffer compared to the HT. And sure I was on the upper edge of matching line weight.
Little less stiffness and I fully agree on the 7wt. to feel heavy already.

Greets
B

p.s.: Thanks guys, am really learning something in this thread.
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#70

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:22 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote: Actually it's a nice 5 but a bit on the heavy side:
Hi Lasse,
you better watch your strike indicator if you don't want a fish flying at the end of your line using that rod to fish the 5wt. line :p

Nice videos. How would you describe the feeling to cast both rods over a longer period in the average range of line length (7-15m off tip range maybe) on a 5wt. line in regard of getting exhausted and/or having a feeling of smoothness during bending and unbending of those rods?

Personally I find such a stiff stick for a 5wt. line making me feel uncomfortable after a while (compared to a smoother one). Avg. dry fly/nymph/streamer situation.
Thanks
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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