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Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:34 am
by Paul Arden
:D :D once upon a time I had a different opinion :whistle:

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:38 am
by Lee Cummings
So what’s changed?
In Spey we try to install that you have one back cast to set everything up right and make the shot. (Of course it can be aborted, poked forwards and another D/V loop re rolled up) but that essentially is the back cast, these movements have the purpose of forming a D/V loop.

Agree that static roll has no back cast, just line slowly repositioned prior to fc.

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:45 am
by Paul Arden
When you Sweep the line around is there a point in the stroke where you think about forming/delivering the D/V loop or does your attention stay with the line end?

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:19 am
by Lasse Karlsson
Whats the fundamental difference between a D and a V loop?

Cheers
Lasse

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:21 am
by Paul Arden
Tip path :p

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:26 am
by Lasse Karlsson
Paul Arden wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:26 am
Loop: A moving length of line delivered past the rod tip, formed when the rod tip curves the line under or over itself.
Static Roll cast doesn’t apply.

Jump Roll cast could apply. I’m far more inclined to call that movement Sweep, ie the main purpose is to position the line. However I accept that you could call it a Casting Stroke. You could also call it a cheeseburger if you thought it would help your students.

When is a loop formed? Ie the actual point of separation between rod and fly legs? When the line at the front starts to decelerate and the remaining line overtakes this point. Non-hauled cast this is usually RSP or thereabouts. Hauled cast as we both know can indeed be earlier, at the conclusion of the haul on a 170 if it has early finish.

Cheers, Paul
Why is a roll cast excluded? How do you go from not moving your hand, to have it positioned in a different point in space and time without having accelerated it at some point?

Aren't you forming the D loop in a rollcast by moving the line, stopping moving said line, the part at the tip stop and the rest slowly overtakes, formning the D and coming to a still, for the "static" rollcast?

Cheers
Lasse

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:27 am
by Lasse Karlsson
Paul Arden wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:21 am
Tip path :p
How is it tippath ;)

Cheers
Lasse

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:11 am
by Paul Arden
Straight tip path gives the V. Curved tip path gives the D. Generalising.

For the static Roll Cast I’m not casting a Loop of line behind the rod tip. Rather I’m sliding the line back along the water. Arguably if teaching making a backcast for a Dynamic Roll gets results then that is fine - and if your intent is primarily to form a moving loop delivered past the rod tip, forming the D, then that is all fine. The definitions are flexible in this regards.

However it can also be said that the entire movement is Sweep, ie the intention of repositioning the line, and that is the primary purpose - the D/V occurs of course. At what point exactly you choose to go from Sweep to Casting Stroke is an interesting one. Mostly I watch and concentrate on the line end. There is an acceleration but I don’t think I’m so much casting the line back as lifting the rod up to clear a space for the D loop to form.

Cheers, Paul

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:48 am
by Lasse Karlsson
If the D/V occurs, you have made a casting stroke according to your definitions, which is movement with the intent to make a loop.

And since sweep is just a reposition of the line, it might as well be a casting stroke, I move with the intent to form a loop of a certain shape... actually, I move to move the line, then a loop happens as a byproduct.

Cheers
Lasse

Re: 'Ideal loading point at the tip of the rod'........oh no!

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:58 am
by Lee Cummings
Paul Arden wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:45 am
When you Sweep the line around is there a point in the stroke where you think about forwming/delivering the D/V loop or does your attention stay with the line end?
Sweep and casting stroke often blend, but can be separated.

Coming (around the corner) in a single Spey for instance, you know you apply more force at that point for the purpose of attaining a particular alignment.