180 "tails".

[Bernd Ziesche]

But what if instead of 25’ it was 75’? Still no dangle/tail/wave? I don’t think it’s been proven. Only under certain criteria it doesn’t happen. Or at least it completely passes through the line. I think that’s where we disagree?

Mate,
If you claim acceleration to cause a tailing loop, I will disagree.
If you claim proper (smooth) acceleration to cause a tailing loop, I will disagree either.
If you claim too uneven acceleration causing the tip to dip and rise and this shaping the fly-leg anomalie, I agree.

Violating the 180 concept causing a tailing loop per se would mean, that everytime we teach any sort of change of direction cast like for example the PUALD we would teach to fail.
All COD casts make it harder to controll smooth acceleration not causing a too sudden increase in rod bend. Lengthening the line does make it harder either. The moment we loose control, we try to compensate and mostly fuck up smoothness and make it worse.

I don't believe, that violating 180 as a stand alone cause, can create a tailing loop. It will be hard for you to keep all else in proper quality on a long carry (timing, line speed, smoothness and so on). But if you proove me (us) wrong, fine.
Cheers
B

[Morsie]

I don't believe in tailing loops only done by mismatching to align the unrolled back cast being inline with launch direction for the next cast.

We agree on that Bernd - that was never in question - not the true double cross tail (that doesn't actually need to cross. My question was about the other shape. I filmed them today but couldn't get the camera high enough, widest lens is not wide enough even though i had the camera on top of a tripod on top of my van - and I don't have immediate access to a drone, which is what you need. I'm looking for a better spot, or a drone.

[Torsten]

Hi Bernd,

I've tried that yesterday shortly with a half rod (lower part) and was able to produce self-intersecting/crossed loops. Interestingly, it seems to work even with a side cast. Check post #23, there is an video from Aitor linked, a redirection of a cast which produces such a "kink".
So maybe the simulation isn't too unrealistic.
Redirections seem to influence the momentum in different directions. Ever tried a roll cast on slippery ground? The line on the ground has the tendency to slide backward.

Torsten.

Torsten,
I tried to create a tailing loop with a broomstick (9 feet) in many ways. It did not happen for me. I am pretty sure to remember Lasse made the same experience when trying it either. I really like the visualizing your model provides, but are glad you agree on the practical experiments being needed to varify the model.

Paul,
in your SL video section you say, that half of the carry Aitor steeple casted was long already. So how can Aitor his carry have been short now?
95% of my students hardly ever will use such a long carry on a steeple cast. Let's stay realistic (representative), please!

Peter,
ah yes, that video was demonstrating a tailing and a dangle both in the same cast.

Regards
B

[Paul Arden]

It certainly works on the side because that’s what I filmed earlier in this thread with the broomstick. For me the simulations are very realistic and exactly as I see them. Maybe if it’s not difficult make the simulation with a very short line and a much longer one too? If the line is shortened up to the length of tip travel (for example) I would expect it to be eliminated.

Whether you can get a double intersection because of the line taper I don’t know. The end of the line sometimes seems to have a mind of its own. I think it’s more likely that it will be what we more commonly call now a dangling end. But wavy it most certainly is.

Drone is an excellent idea. But I’ll wait until I have the life jacket for it. I have a FP story on drones...

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

I'm looking for a better spot, or a drone.

Hi Peter,
that would be a great additional view for sure!
Glad, we agree about the tailing though.
Cheers
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

I've tried that yesterday shortly with a half rod (lower part) and was able to produce self-intersecting/crossed loops.

Hi Torsten,
all I need to do for having my fly-leg crossing my rod-leg is reducing line speed. The rod stiffness does not matter at all here.

Check post #23, there is an video from Aitor linked, a redirection of a cast which produces such a "kink".
So maybe the simulation isn't too unrealistic.

I remember, when I was casting below that bridge. Great videos Aitor made from above! That video to me shows the line end dangling before then again moving into a fine proper loop nicely unrolling. If I would reduce line speed enough to have the fly-leg fall more down (into or even below the rod-leg), the whole dangle would be diferent, too. Line speed usually pronounces the dangle in my experience.

Ever tried a roll cast on slippery ground? The line on the ground has the tendency to slide backward.

Aitor made another brilliant video some years ago of me roll casting on a tennis field offering very slippery (hard) bottom. That video perfectly showed the whole acceleration is finished BEFORE the anchor slips and thus we don't need the anchor to load (better bend) the rod. Yes, the end of the line then started overtaking momentum in the wrong direction due to slipping backwards. Again more line speed = more slipping speed.

Yesterday Aitor made another slomo of him steeple casting the longest carry I have seen in a steeple cast. Again smooth forward accel. then made for a perfect unrolling presentation.

One thing I have learned teaching wise, is that starting the lesson to teach smooth acceleration I hardly see tailing loops to happen within the whole lesson until I force the students into longer carries and that way loosing control over smoothness. COD casts are no problem as long as smoothness is rule number one!

Anyway I am all eyes for a slomo or any video at all showing smooth acceleration, proper timing and just violating 180 to cause the issue being discussed here. It's too hard without seeing what really we have to deal with without video. Too often other causes have been overlooked according to my own experience. Happened to my many times, too!
Regards
Bernd

[Graeme H]

Hi Graeme,

I've rotated the straight acceleration segment slightly upward.

Torsten.

Thanks Torsten. Much appreciated.

[Morsie]

Finally got around to filming this from a drone.

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Peter

Why do they only happen one way?

Cheers
Lasse

[Tangled]

Can someone put me straight on wind knots?

It seems to me that in order to get a wind knot, not only must the lines cross but at some point the tippet must be moving faster than the loop. It has to overtake the loop in order to form the overhand knot. Is that correct?