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180 "tails".

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Paul Arden
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Re: 180 "tails".

#81

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Dirk,

Great video! Do you regard a waypoint as behaving like a wave?

Next week I’ll shoot an hour of video, at 60fps, widescreen. I wish I had Lasse’s straight building lines but I don’t! I don’t think 1,2 6 casts is what we need. I think we need thousands of casts.

But first I need some fish!

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: 180 "tails".

#82

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi Paul

The building is on public property, anyone can come 😉

Since we already have more than one cast showing either outcome, it should be quite easy to rule out stuff, but hey, lets look at some more 🙂

Question, on just about all the forward cast closed or tailing loops shows, the backcast didn't have either, why is that? The angle change is the same..

Looking forward to many clips 🙂

Catch a big one!

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Lasse
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Re: 180 "tails".

#83

Post by Dirk le Roux »

Paul Arden wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:08 pm Great video! Do you regard a waypoint as behaving like a wave?
Hi Paul

Not my video, just to be sure. And yes, as I said before.

Hi Lasse

The backcasts going better is all in the strokes.

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Re: 180 "tails".

#84

Post by Paul Arden »

Thanks Dirk, my memory is not the best however at least it gives me many new things :)

Is the holding of the waypoint or progression of the line bend therefore related to tension in the fly leg? Therefore for it to hold relative position it must travel at the speed of the loop?

Thanks, Paul
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Re: 180 "tails".

#85

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Lasse, it’s not really about ruling stuff out for me at this moment but rather including stuff. Bernd is saying that the dangling end is not a wave. For me if most certainly is. It’s either put there by the rod tip during the angle change or it’s put there by the backcast with sag.

Very interesting on your backcast observation. I’ll have to restudy it when I have a bit more time.

Anyway if I can make an hour of footage trying all sorts of crappy angles then I’m sure I might be able to capture something.

Incidentally the Svirgolato Curve Cast which is often described as a tailing loop cast is for me predominantly made by angle change. Maybe therefore it’s a dangling end cast :)

Cheers, Paul
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Re: 180 "tails".

#86

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Paul Arden wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:30 am Incidentally the Svirgolato Curve Cast which is often described as a tailing loop cast is for me predominantly made by angle change. Maybe therefore it’s a dangling end cast :)
Hi Paul,
Keeping the bc and the fc along a straight line (not changing direction) is quite a proper exercise for the Svirgolato cast. It's definetly a wave running thru the fly-leg caused by a dip and rise in rod tip path very early in the stroke. I create it by a very uneven force application. Nothing to do with a dangle as I see it.
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Re: 180 "tails".

#87

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Dirk le Roux wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:20 pm By the way, I would please still like to see footage of ANY casts where the post-rollout AND post-RSP line layout is close to straight and 180 degrees to the cast trajectory. Not breaking 180 appears to be a rare exception.
Hi Dirk,
180 concept for me is:
The unrolled fly line as it is in the moment we start the next cast should be as straight as possible and it's direction should match the main trajectory (launch direction) for the next cast as good as possible.

For proper reason I call it a concept, not a principle:

There is no straight in fly casting.

About the dangle I very much believe line speed is one important factor while line length and thus time being another. When I increase line speed, I usually increase the dangle. The line end gets additional momentum in a direction I don't want.

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B
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Re: 180 "tails".

#88

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Dirk le Roux wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:01 pm

Hi Lasse

The backcasts going better is all in the strokes.

Cheers
Hi Dirk

Yeah, I know, I was more or less putting it out there, hoping for the aha moment :blush:

I have just discussed this with Vince Brandon too. I really don't like to put casters into small boxes of beginner/intermediate/good/expert/übercaster as there is much things that go again between them rather than things that gets left behind from one stage to another, and there are most likely a ton more stages in between them, and one instructors notion of a stage differs from another instructors. And the underlying reason why it's not present in the backcast mostly, comes from the timing of the casts, forward casts get to unroll complelty, flaws and faults galore, because we watch them and are facinated with them. backcasts however, they are not visible, and thus we tend to neglect them. In this case of less than 180 degrees seperation, FC to BC gets a nice long acceleration path, and no tails happen, no closed loops happen. BC to FC though, rushed, not a nice line to start from, and we get trouble. The trouble just doesn't come from the angle change, but from missed timing, shortened acceleration path, uneven acceleration due to those things etc. And this goes again through all stages of casters. The better the caster, the longer the line needs to be before we can't be smooth enough, be spot on on timing, can get the line moving fast enough etc.

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Lasse
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Re: 180 "tails".

#89

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Paul Arden wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:30 am Hi Lasse, it’s not really about ruling stuff out for me at this moment but rather including stuff. Bernd is saying that the dangling end is not a wave. For me if most certainly is. It’s either put there by the rod tip during the angle change or it’s put there by the backcast with sag.

Very interesting on your backcast observation. I’ll have to restudy it when I have a bit more time.

Anyway if I can make an hour of footage trying all sorts of crappy angles then I’m sure I might be able to capture something.

Incidentally the Svirgolato Curve Cast which is often described as a tailing loop cast is for me predominantly made by angle change. Maybe therefore it’s a dangling end cast :)

Cheers, Paul
Hi Paul

I would like to get to the root of something first, then expand, but that's ok :)

For me it is most likely a wave, it's put there by the rodtip (aka. the casters actions) and accentuated with sag. Minimize the mostion that puts it there and minmize sag, and it all but disappears. If we try to do that when we are outside our comfort zone, it won't work and instead gets worse. Best example I ever saw was casting with übercaster Kenneth Opager here in Denmark, we where trying out a rod and had his MED line on it, he was carrying something like 90 feet and the dangling end was passing os by at shin height, but not causing any trouble, he was well within his comfortzone the barstool... Two dudes walk up and asks him what he would do if he was fishing and standiong hip deep in water (as asshats do at shows) because then he would hit the water and mess up you know... Well, Kenneth just replied he would naturally cast faster, changed gears and ziiiip, dangle all but disappeared, line end passed us shoulder height, and the two dudes are still looking for their jaws.

I've written a bit about the BC thing in my reply to Dirk :blush:

And yeah, the Svirgolato, Chris Rownes keeps showing it to me, I nail it, and then promptly forget how to do it again :whistle: For me it's predominantly made by the demo version of tails showing the too narrow arc thing, which in reality is still shite acceleration, but with the tail part being the majority of the acceleration going in one direction and a small part going upwards at the end of the stroke. I can completly see why you would think it's a angle change thing, rather than a "tailing loop" thing.

Looking forward to those casts :cool:

Cheers
Lasse
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Re: 180 "tails".

#90

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Lasse Karlsson wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:41 pm
Paul Arden wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:30 am For me it is most likely a wave, it's put there by the rodtip (aka. the casters actions) and accentuated with sag. Minimize the mostion that puts it there and minmize sag, and it all but disappears.
Hi Lasse,
Some questions: :p :pirate:
1. At what section of the stroke and in which stroke (same cast as the dangle or the pre cast) does the tip cause the dangle?
2. What tip movement in particular causes the dangle?
3. So, what tip motion to be minimized?
4. Since it's a wave for you, where does it start and where does it end (direction of travelling)?
5. What causes the sag in your view, tip movement either?
Thanks,
Bernd

P.s.: For me it's different sections of the line moving in different velocities (both speed and direction). Each section has it's own momentum.
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