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180 "tails".

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Torsten
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Re: 180 "tails".

#91

Post by Torsten »

Hi

shortly about "transverse waves", I've copied some quotes from the physics section:
Wave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave
"In physics, mathematics, and related fields, a wave is a propagating dynamic disturbance (change from equilibrium) of one or more quantities, sometimes as described by a wave equation. "

"Mechanical and electromagnetic waves transfer energy, momentum, and information, but they do not transfer particles in the medium. "

Transverse wave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_wave
"In physics, a transverse wave is a moving wave whose oscillations are perpendicular to the direction of the wave or path of propagation."
So think about these quotes, I don't think that we can call what we see there a "transverse wave". First, because we transfer (line) particles, second because the oscillations of the (line) particles are not always perpendicular to the propagation direction.
I'd use the adjective "wavy" or "wave-like" for these shapes, e.g. a wavy fly leg for instance.

Torsten.
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: 180 "tails".

#92

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi Bernd

Have a look at Aitors last fine video, its clear to see 😉 1-4

And 5, sag is clearly caused by our old friend gravity 😊

Cheers
Lasse
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: 180 "tails".

#93

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi Torsten

Looking at the examples of what a tranverse wave is , they seem to fit quite nicely with what goes on in a flyline?
Transverse waves
In tranverse waves, the vibrations are at right angles to the direction of wave travel.

Examples of transverse waves include:

ripples on the surface of water
vibrations in a guitar string
a Mexican wave in a sports stadium
electromagnetic waves – eg light waves, microwaves, radio waves
seismic S-waves
Cheers
Lasse
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Torsten
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Re: 180 "tails".

#94

Post by Torsten »

Hi Lasse,

for string waves e.g. guitar string, the string is fixed at two ends and for transverse oscillating particles move only perpendicular to the string. For fly lines the particles move in all sorts of directions. You could set the coordinate system relative to the fly line, but you need to still prove that the disturbance propagates while the particles oscillate only perpendicular to the propagation direction. I don't think that we can always assume that, but maybe you can show a video proof to convince me. Otherwise I'd call these shapes simply "wavy", also I can't imagine that your target audience really knows the difference between longitudinal and transverse waves (that's for physicists or engineer geeks like me).

Thanks,
Torsten
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Graeme H
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Re: 180 "tails".

#95

Post by Graeme H »

Where did these waves come from?

:D :D :D
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: 180 "tails".

#96

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Hi Torsten

I'm perfectly fine calling them waves, just funny after 10 years of everyone basicly agreeing they travel perpendicular to the line, now they apperantly don't 🤣

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Lasse
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Paul Arden
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Re: 180 "tails".

#97

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Torsten,

How would you describe these phenomena?

It’s interesting for me that you don’t see them as a transverse wave. I’m all ears!

Thanks,
Paul
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Flycasting Definitions
Torsten
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Re: 180 "tails".

#98

Post by Torsten »

Hi Paul,

I think I'd call these just wavy shapes. The "tailing loop" itself seems to be a moving target, I've read several definitions - in older publications already a single intersection was called a "tailing loop" now there is something like a "trailing loop" (in my opinion very easy to confuse). I've seen that Bernd calls wavy top leg a tailing loop. I have the problem, that no useful translation into German exists - often instructors used simply the english term (mixing English and German isn't such a good idea IMHO). Some of the EFFA instructors like the term "Birne" (=pear in english) - does not really convince me.
Maybe words that are well known in geometry - such as a self-intersecting loop and just describe the features of that loop, e.g. if there are two intersection points, the cause was a wavy fly leg for instance.

BTW, Aitors clip shows a wavy rod and a wavy fly leg @00:03, I'm wondering if we need a new loop name for that :)


Torsten.
Torsten
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Re: 180 "tails".

#99

Post by Torsten »

I made recently some line simulation runs with my current algorithm (I'm working on a bit faster simulation). This is still a quick & dirty hack, a simple level line without leader and fly, no aerodynamics or energy losses (that's why the line bounces back at the end). I would draw any conclusion from it, but I've still found it interesting to share, because the case with a high back cast looks a bit like one of Lasse's casts and you get a self-intersecting loop.

3 cases: one cast with a straight line, one with a high line and one with a low line as setup. The tip path is for all the same, a straight segment, constant acceleration and then a downward curve to separate fly and rod leg.

With aerodynamics I'd expect that the line falls slower and more morphing.
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Bernd Ziesche
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Re: 180 "tails".

#100

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Bernd Ziesche wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:58 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:41 pm For me it is most likely a wave, it's put there by the rodtip (aka. the casters actions) and accentuated with sag. Minimize the mostion that puts it there and minmize sag, and it all but disappears.
1. At what section of the stroke and in which stroke (same cast as the dangle or the pre cast) does the tip cause the dangle?
2. What tip movement in particular causes the dangle?
3. So, what tip motion to be minimized?
4. Since it's a wave for you, where does it start and where does it end (direction of travelling)?
5. What causes the sag in your view, tip movement either?
Lasse Karlsson wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:12 pm Have a look at Aitors last fine video, its clear to see 😉 1-4
And 5, sag is clearly caused by our old friend gravity 😊
Hi Lasse,
obviously I had seen all Aitor's fine videos. My question wasn't about what I saw in those videos (which I of course knew), but what you saw in there. I was here to learn...

Maybe you can't remember, but while some instructors saw a (micro) tailing loop caused by Carl's MPR tip dip and rise, others saw a tension-based wavy fly-leg within a proper fly cast presenting a fine loop. Always inspiring to hear what others see.

This thread is just another fine example. I provided all the information needed and addionally linked "Aitors last fine video" to answer the initial question. Still some instructors keep claiming, that violating the 180 concept causes (or can cause) tailing loops, yet without any proves. I am fine to agree to disagree.

About gravity causing the line sag I agree to disagree either. Same gravity is always acting. Obviously it's the other forces at play varying and thus causing all different line shapes. I can change the dangle on purpose, but yet did not succeed in adjusting gravity to my casts.
Cheers
Bernd

P.s.: Since this thread now easily may run into 1000 postings, while most probably ending up in renaming the dangling end (as it was named 20 years ago) into a harmonic oczillating wavy tensioned pirouette loop, I am out. :cool:
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