Belgian / Gebetsroither / Continuous Tenion

[Morsie]

Here you go Carol, I found this further down.

https://www.ginkandgasoline.com/fly-fis ... ies-video/

[Thomas_E]

H !

I think Roman is here far better, he is probably the best in the Gebetsroither style.
Perfect tracking.
From min. 31:14 he shows things like reach mend, steeple cast, weight cast etc..



Cheers,
Thomas E.

[Carol]

I think Roman is here far better, he is probably the best in the Gebetsroither style.
Perfect tracking.

Roman certainly is silky smooth. I just wish ich sprach Deutsche (help from google translation ) to understand what he's saying in the instruction.

I loved listening to Hayes talk about the continuous tension cast (I just love listening to him talk about "bag of shit" back casts ) and am glad that so much of the conversations at that gathering were recorded and uploaded to YouTube (thanks TimK). There's something to be said about using constant tension casts to teach a student the feel of the line under tension rather than the PULD normally first taught to adults. I know some instructors teach pancakes, eggs and bacon (circles, eights and straights) to kids, and perhaps that is always a good way to start with adults too. I don't have enough experience to know.

So, what I'm learning from this thread is that the Belgian uses plans that are more disparate and can easily introduce the strong positive curve (hook) but that it can be mitigated by using an inclined plane with a "flick" (my inaccurate word) as the upward stroke melds into the forward stroke. Gebetstroither (or other spellings) uses planes that are less disparate. Lastly, "constant tension" may be a misnomer, though I'm not at the level of knowing that from experience yet except that I have noticed that the tension is not the same throughout the cast, only that there is not a stop and consequent unrolling of the loop that can result in a decrease of tension, depending upon the level of caster and timing. Am I on track with all of this?

Thank you all for the help and knowledge you generously share. And BTW, happy birthday Morsie!

[Carol]

Here you go Carol, I found this further down.

https://www.ginkandgasoline.com/fly-fis ... ies-video/

This video is super helpful, Morsie. Thank you. I'm going to download it and then upload it into coach's eye so I can really see what's happening in the upward lift, watching his hand motion. Going to do the same with Paul's pendulum cast video.

[Paul Arden]

Twisting the hand out and upwards at the end of the stroke. That’s a good question. And a terrible answer. Just in a rush. Will try to explain properly later!

[Carol]

Twisting the hand out and upwards at the end of the stroke. That’s a good question. And a terrible answer. Just in a rush. Will try to explain properly later!

I can see it pretty clearly in your pendulum cast video. Also can see it in Tim Rajeff’s video that Morsie linked to. It’s almost like drawing a “J” with the flip of the hand. It's a hand dance movement I learned as a kid.

[Morsie]

Carol I don't think Tim lifts high enough initially in this clip. Since I jumped on the Spey bandwagon the importance of a proper lift has become hugely apparent in its impact on everything that follows. A higher lift can give you a slower and more controlled back swing, but not so high that you can't take the rod tip up an incline.

[Paul Arden]

I don't know; it's like twisting a light bulb, or a screw driver, or an ice cream cone... It's quite an interesting movement because you can actually use rather a lot of power with it, although for what we are discussing here it's soft to medium soft. Like Morsie says, it's a Spey move too. (This is not beginners stuff; this is Intermediate and above.)

What I also like about it, is that it gives you something to "unwind" again on the forward cast. You can unwind through the complete forward stroke, or instead, at the end of the stroke and use it to turn the rod over. ie Torque Twist. Like clicking your fingers, or "laying it on a plate". Or, finally, you need not "unwind" at all, and simply keep the hand in that same plane throughout the entire forward stroke and deliver just like you were throwing a ball. (Or dunking a basketball)

You can also throw this hand twist movement into a vertical backcast, either to throw a tight horizontal loop plane on the backcast, or even completely vertical over-the-tip with a bit of practise. I do it most of the time, over-the-tip, if I am square to the target, taking shots and so on.

Incidentally, with all of this I am very much gripping the rod predominantly with the two smallest fingers and not with dominant pressure from the top of the hand. I think that makes a huge difference.

Nice discussion!

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi everyone,
Mostly there is a lot of confusion coming along with the Hans Gebetsroither style as soon as non native German speaking experts demonstrate that style. This always reminds me well of how much effort it takes to learn a second language and study the technical details of fly casting being offered in that language!

Hans Gebetsroither (HG) was a river keeper on the famous Austrian river Traun in a time, when that river was loaded with grayling and trout. No medium or even long presentation casts were needed in order to catch many fish. HG used to recommend to fish short lines for best control over one's fly always!

Being a river keeper HG in the evenings had to dry and grease the silk lines of his clients. For drying those lines he needed to cast them in extra high line speed. At some point he realized, that casting in a circle (inverted loops in the back cast, in which the fly-leg would unroll below the rod-leg and opposite in the forward cast) reduced the number of knots being thrown into those lines during dry casting them was drastically decreasing.
In all pictures and videos presenting HG casting I saw him performing relatively open loops mainly coming from rotating his rod arm shoulder.
Later on other experts seemed to desire to be recognized and started demonstrating the HG style whenever and wherever they got a chance to.

As I well know by my own experiece in demonstrating fly casting it always were the long carries creating extra attention among the majority of the audience! No wonder, that for example Roman Moser and Hans Ruedi Hebeisen were usually demonstrating (what they called to be) the HG style on longer carries compared to the line length HG was fishing.

When side casting like in the HG style long carries, one main issue will show up:
Longer carries = more rod bend = increased counterflexing.
This additional counterflex will bring the tip to the inner side (caster's direction) of the fly line and then have the rod-leg being positioned sideways of the fly-leg. Exactly this on long carries mostly will cause the fly-leg to unroll above the rod-leg. It won't be inverted loops any longer!

Hans Ruedi Hebeisen (HRH) was smart and described the HG style to have the fly line passing below the rod tip in the back cast. He usually did not talk much about what exactly happened in the final turn over when comparing HG on short to maybe medium carries to what such other experts (like himself) did on long carries. On long carries one easily looses control over the final turn over when casting in a circular motion trying to keep the back loop inverted.

In my understanding the real HG style was about casting shorter carries in a ciruclar (or oval) motion having an inverted loop in the back cast.

HRH often published a picture of him casting next to HG. In this picture HG had a much bigger loop as had HRH. Perefctly matching picture to me.

The key for longer carries is, to accelerate the back cast as straight as possible and to lift the tip POST RSP1 BY DRIFT! Following this thread this is still missunderstood by many obviously.
If one still aims for inverted loops for the final turn over significant upwards drift is needed not leaving much space for the next cast. Another reason why on long carries I don't see the (in my point of view) real HG style being demonstrated anymore.

The Belgian cast to me is a casting style, in which I have my fly pass my head left in the forward cast and right in the back cast (right handed caster). Thus am throwing the fly around my head. Great tool to cast when having wind against my rod side and not wanting to cast off shoulder for it's limitation or presenting the back cast to the fish. For reaching distance I again strive for straight as possible acceleration and use drift for repositioning. The wind will push my line to the left before starting the forward cast.

CONSTANT TENSION casting to me sounds like nonsense. Maybe someone can explain me the difference to the rest of casting styles? (Yes, I watched Peter Hayse trying to explain it in the video being linked in this thread, but yet don't follow his explanation.)

You may find a video presenting inverted loops in here:
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... down-loops

Regards
Bernd

P.s.: I have been fishing 2 to 4,5 gram weighted flies all winter long. The last thing I wanted, was casting around my head risking to shoot a deadly whole into my head! Sometimes I am wondering, if some experts ever really tried fishing wise, what they are talking about in youtube videos.

[Morsie]

Appreciate your perspective Bernd, and yep its definitely a style.

The Belgian cast to me is a casting style, in which I have my fly pass my head left in the forward cast and right in the back cast (right handed caster). Thus am throwing the fly around my head.

Not at all, that's just an extension of the usual "oval" cast for when the wind's a bit stronger - have also heard it called a "helicopter cast". I don't believe that was the "Belgian" cast that was taken to the US by Albert Goddard. I reckon William van der Vorst's story is pretty much bang on, and i have also read it elsewhere.