PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!
Essentails Revisited
Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik
-
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:28 pm
- Location: South East England
- Contact:
Essentails Revisited
I'm in the same boat Gilly with the slight difference that I try not to stop the rod, I concentrate on the hand. As has been pointed out the rod doesn't actually stop in real life, it straightens, goes into counterflex, straightens again and by then you may have moved into a drift or just repositioned the hand. The rod is rarely motionless at any point during the cast. I used to use stop the rod but noticed a few clients chasing (for want of a better description) the rod tip. Once I got them focusing on the hand rather than the rod the problem disappeared.
As Steve says do it your way, besides you quite possibly have more hands on instructing experience than the people assessing you. You know your methods work so have confidence in them.
Mike
As Steve says do it your way, besides you quite possibly have more hands on instructing experience than the people assessing you. You know your methods work so have confidence in them.
Mike
It's fly casting Jim, but not as we Know it.
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19585
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Essentails Revisited
Hi Gilly,
as far as teaching beginners goes teaching them to stop can get excellent results, so absolutely carry on doing that. Here's something to try for yourself as a much more experienced caster: instead of stopping the rod [butt] try "nudging" the rod.
Cheers Paul
as far as teaching beginners goes teaching them to stop can get excellent results, so absolutely carry on doing that. Here's something to try for yourself as a much more experienced caster: instead of stopping the rod [butt] try "nudging" the rod.
Cheers Paul
- Chase Jablonski
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: Boise, Idaho
Essentails Revisited
Gilly,
I also teach stopping the rod. I've toyed with other ways to describe it but that is the most effective way for me to describe a changing arc to beginners. As I teach more advanced students I typically refer to it as a smooth transition from acceleration to drift. You will have to find what works best for you.
I also teach stopping the rod. I've toyed with other ways to describe it but that is the most effective way for me to describe a changing arc to beginners. As I teach more advanced students I typically refer to it as a smooth transition from acceleration to drift. You will have to find what works best for you.
- Chase Jablonski
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: Boise, Idaho
Essentails Revisited
I agree.Bernd Ziesche wrote: From what I have seen in slow motion vids (and CA graphs), I think it's fair to say: Deceleration of the fly rod usually (maybe always) is done in a significant higher rate of (negative) acceleration, than it was accelerated in order to create line speed.
Acceleration ought to be constant.That (I think) is why many instructors have called the "abrupt stop" to be an important part of fly casting.
If the deceleration happens "slightly", than how was the acceleration? Extremely slightly?
We agree loop formation occurs at the slightest deceleration. I also agree that what you do after loop formation can affect the shape of the loop but I'm not sure that a rapid deceleration or "hard stop" is what we want. I would like to think I progress into rotational and longitudinal drift while gradually decelerating, although I haven't measured in any significant way.Sure I agree loop formation would start with the slightest beginning of deceleration... But in order to effectively use the size of arc to create the desired line speed, I aim for a significant deceleration, not a slight deceleration of my rod.
I adjust the way how I stop (decelerate) the rod in order to shape my loops, as well as I stop the rod in order to create a loop.
The process of stopping, or slowing down, is important but I do not agree that a rapid deceleration is an important part of creating the loop.So if you like, I understand the process of stopping the rod not only to affect the loop, but to be an important part of creating it.
Yet I don't really believe in casting loops back and forth without accelerating and decelerating (stopping) the rod.
Agree.What I agree on, is the rod doesn't have to be stopped until being motionless. In fact I think it hardly ever will be motionless during false casting.
Cheers,
Chase
Essentails Revisited
If you are rotating the rod, the tips velocity in the direction of the cast will decrease relative to a point on the line trailing behind it. I expect that someone without a hangover will demonstrate this mathematically, but I suspect it will represent a significant deceleration.Chase Jablonski wrote:We agree loop formation occurs at the slightest deceleration. I also agree that what you do after loop formation can affect the shape of the loop but I'm not sure that a rapid deceleration or "hard stop" is what we want. I would like to think I progress into rotational and longitudinal drift while gradually decelerating, although I haven't measured in any significant way.
regards
Vince
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” — Ernst F. Schumacher
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19585
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Essentails Revisited
I don't believe this to be true apart from which I wouldn't know how to do it, Chase.Acceleration ought to be constant.
With regards loop formation, I would generally say that is RSP. But it could be argued that it's all the way from the very beginning of the Casting Stroke through to MCF or even RSP2.
Caught a nice asp this morning. I may have to become a morning person.
Cheers Paul
- Lasse Karlsson
- Posts: 5783
- Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
- Location: There, and back again
- Contact:
Essentails Revisited
We'll change that again in OctoberPaul Arden wrote: I may have to become a morning person.
Cheers Paul
Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Essentails Revisited
I think there is a lot of good stuff in this Vince. I suspect we use controlled deceleration and controlled rotation to form the loop. I also think we may vary this combination with the length of line out of the rod tip.VGB wrote:If you are rotating the rod, the tips velocity in the direction of the cast will decrease relative to a point on the line trailing behind it. I expect that someone without a hangover will demonstrate this mathematically, but I suspect it will represent a significant deceleration.Chase Jablonski wrote:We agree loop formation occurs at the slightest deceleration. I also agree that what you do after loop formation can affect the shape of the loop but I'm not sure that a rapid deceleration or "hard stop" is what we want. I would like to think I progress into rotational and longitudinal drift while gradually decelerating, although I haven't measured in any significant way.
regards
Vince
Gilly, I'd stick with your current explanation!
W.
Lineslinger
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI
"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI
"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
-
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:39 am
Essentails Revisited
Sorry for the delayed response. I have been traveling since July 19th.
There is a great deal more written here on Sexyloops than in the entire booklet on the essentials. So Paul may be disappointed with my "thought provoking" response. Remember that my Dad and I were asked to write a beginners booklet for the education department on the FFF. It was to be part of a series. We were limited to about 24 pages. So there was not much discussion on any topic. I jokingly tell people that it is a cutting edge booklet, "Completely at the edge of our knowledge" at the time. You can see the difference in the booklet and video I produced 14 years later. I understand them better now than when we wrote them.
To answer Mike's original question, Dad and I talked all the way around this topic and decided that the proper acceleration and deceleration of a rod were not able to be separated. Proper acceleration of the rod leads to What? A proper stop is stopping what? Together they create a proper power application. Now what is the best way to say deceleration that everyone will instantly understand "stop." IT was that simple. Sorry there is know great casting wisdom there.
Now I have no idea what I told Lasse. I hope it was the same.
Have a good night
Bill
There is a great deal more written here on Sexyloops than in the entire booklet on the essentials. So Paul may be disappointed with my "thought provoking" response. Remember that my Dad and I were asked to write a beginners booklet for the education department on the FFF. It was to be part of a series. We were limited to about 24 pages. So there was not much discussion on any topic. I jokingly tell people that it is a cutting edge booklet, "Completely at the edge of our knowledge" at the time. You can see the difference in the booklet and video I produced 14 years later. I understand them better now than when we wrote them.
To answer Mike's original question, Dad and I talked all the way around this topic and decided that the proper acceleration and deceleration of a rod were not able to be separated. Proper acceleration of the rod leads to What? A proper stop is stopping what? Together they create a proper power application. Now what is the best way to say deceleration that everyone will instantly understand "stop." IT was that simple. Sorry there is know great casting wisdom there.
Now I have no idea what I told Lasse. I hope it was the same.
Have a good night
Bill
-
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:28 pm
- Location: South East England
- Contact:
Essentails Revisited
Thank you Bill. I didn't realise you had created the Essentials specifically for the FFF and therefore, I assume, for instructor candidates who should already be able to cast to some degree or other. It was not created as a 'how to fly cast' booklet.
But , and I don't want to be picky , nowhere in the Essentials or the explanations do you mention acceleration or deceleration apart from the fifth where a 'crisp stop' is mentioned although there are three photographs (fig5, 6a and 6b) which demonstrate how the crisp stop transfers energy from the rod to the line.
If you were rewriting or creating a new set of Essentials today would you do them differently?
Respectfully,
Mike
But , and I don't want to be picky , nowhere in the Essentials or the explanations do you mention acceleration or deceleration apart from the fifth where a 'crisp stop' is mentioned although there are three photographs (fig5, 6a and 6b) which demonstrate how the crisp stop transfers energy from the rod to the line.
If you were rewriting or creating a new set of Essentials today would you do them differently?
Respectfully,
Mike
It's fly casting Jim, but not as we Know it.