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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

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Bernd Ziesche
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#1

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:29 pm

Hi everyone,
I know this has been discussed quite some times on Sexyloops. But instead of searching up old (maybe not always up to date postings) I like to start a new discussion. :cool:

When we double haul at the end we have to stop our rod hand and our line hand and adjust those stops to one another.

Let's say we have a timeline presenting:

1. The intentional decision to stop each hand
2. The hand starting to slow down (starting to stop it's motion)
3. The hand being completely stopped.
4. In case of the rod hand the delay for the rod tip while straightening of the rod happens.

The distance of deceleration (as far as I understand it) will vary for each hand depending on speed and resistance of (to) each hand.

My key question is when is the best moment to make the intentional decision to stop each hand in relation to each other:
a) for a distance shoot and b) during false casting?

Rod hand first?
Line hand first?
Parallel?

Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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gordonjudd
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#2

Post by gordonjudd » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:02 pm

My key question is when is the best moment to make the intentional decision to stop each hand in relation to each other:
Bernd,
My hat is off to you for asking some really asking some thought provoking question lately!

From an applied energy standpoint I think it might be better to consider the relative timing of the maximum acceleration of the haul with the maximum forward acceleration of the rod hand rather than when those motions stop.

As you know in terms of increasing the line velocity outside of the tip both of those hand motions are important. I think the 2x factor that comes from the velocity of the rod hand when the tip of the rod is pointing forward is often overlooked even though I think that is an important factor with the line velocity increase you get with the thrust of the rod hand that is part of the Italian style of casting.

As described in the information on the Italian casting method DVD:
The DVD was directed and produced by Massimo Magliocco, one of Italy’s most famous fly fishing writers and instructors. In this DVD Massimo shows us that casting styles vary but to be proficient there are certain important rules that must be adhered to regardless of casting style, these are the rules of physics! Massimo takes us through various chapters detailing how basic principles such as rod grip and casting axis can affect the proficiency of the cast. Further chapters show the importance of vibration dampening through the cast and the true nature of thrust within the casting stroke and where the maximum amount of line speed is really achieved.
This is where some high speed video analysis might be needed, but my intuition is that world class distance casters time the maximum acceleration of the right hand separation with the maximum acceleration of the hauling hand. The idea would be to time the maximum force applied to the line from those accelerations when the rod tip is traveling near its maximum velocity. That would produce the largest force over the largest distance, and that is the key to producing line speed.

Gordy

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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#3

Post by Sasse » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:26 pm

I have one slow motion movie to be judged.



Im to 99,9% self learned from youtube clips and magazines.
I now i have some problems with the timing of my line hand and haul but im working on that
:pirate:
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Paul Arden
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:22 am

I don't think about either stop. Instead I think about how I apply the force to each. Long and slow, quick and short etc. Normally the hauling hand must continue beyond to RSP.

Cheers, Paul
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gordonjudd
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#5

Post by gordonjudd » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:11 pm

my intuition is that world class distance casters time the maximum acceleration of the right hand separation with the maximum acceleration of the hauling hand.
Bernd,
It takes nearly 4 minutes before Tim gets to the heart of the matter in this video
But his advice to match the power application with the rod hand with the power applied with the hauling hand reflects the concept I was talking about.
Gordy

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Bernd Ziesche
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#6

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:16 pm

gordonjudd wrote:
my intuition is that world class distance casters time the maximum acceleration of the right hand separation with the maximum acceleration of the hauling hand.
Bernd,
It takes nearly 4 minutes before Tim gets to the heart of the matter in this video
Hi Gordy,
from Tim's video:
"The haul matches the right hand (his rod hand) in length and intensity."
That seems to be a fine description to use as well as the one you offered above.

From a teaching point of view I tried different terms to teach the haul adjustment.
One is: "Start to move your hands parallel and then spread the wings."
And how would a bird spread his wings? Identical in length and intensity I think.
Sounds pretty easy, but even birds sometimes should think about the small details. :cool: :p


Paul sais the hauling hand normally must continue beyond to RSP. What does that mean exactly (Paul)?
Does it mean the hauling hand should be accelerated until the tip reaches RSP1 or beyond that?
And then are we talking about both the fc & bc here?
Am asking because in many back casts I see the hauling hand being stopped before the rod has straightened. Like well shown here:

Image

In fact more than once I have heard hauling thru the stop would be important to avoid tailing loops.
Hauling here often is fixed to the line hand movement.
That made me wonder what a student would do if I would ask him to stop the rod hand at the end of the arc but keep the line hand accelerating a little longer?
When I try this pantomimical it feels wrong to me.

Personally I think in the bc for most casters I have been analyzing in detail by video they run out of line hand arm just before the rod straightens often. The softer the rod, the sooner it happens...
On the fc I indeed find quite some instructors still moving the line hand (holding the line) hile the rod has already passed RSP1. Reminds me to the early release thread :)

Greets
Bernd
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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Lasse Karlsson
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#7

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:26 pm

Hi Bernd

Maybe you should try and ask the question:

At what time should the haul be moving with the highest velocity? ;)

Just because someone is still moving doesn't mean they are still accelerating.

Cheers
Lasse
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Bernd Ziesche
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#8

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:00 pm

Hi Lasse,
that is why I was mainly asking for when to initiate the process of stopping each hand. Of course both hands have their very own distance for deceleration and this can be adjusted as well.

When you talk about "the haul moving with the highest velocity" does that refer to the line hand movement relative to the stripping guide or to the line moving thru the tip ring?
And what is your answer to that question?
Thanks
B
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Walter
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#9

Post by Walter » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:53 pm

Berndt -

You get the maximum casting distance by achieving the maximum line speed and controlling your loop size. As Gordy and Lasse have said your need to co-ordinate your hauling hand and rod hand so that they are contributing their most at the same time. But that doesn't address your question about stopping. When to stop the rod hand will depend on casting style - if you use a Rajeff like stroke then the stop is an important element of your style and you probably want to have the maximum contribution from hauling coming just before RSP and then like any other sport besides casting you want to follow through. If you stop at that point then you will actually be decelerating early and losing some of the contribution you would have had from your haul. There is obviously some point after that where you should be finished your haul because otherwise the line will have straightened and if you continue to haul you will be detracting from the forward momentum and movement of the fly line. So somewhere between RSP and LSP (Line Straight Position) is the place to finish hauling. I have an idea of the actual position but I think it requires more thought before I'll say where that is.

If you use a 170 style of casting stroke then the dynamics are different. You need to consider not when the rod tip is at its maximum speed (i.e. just around RSP) but when the X component of the rod tips's motion is at it's maximum and this is going to happen well before RSP.

The other thing to consider is that we don't just haul with our line hand. We've heard lots of discussion about translation vs rotation but if we separate the two with respect to the rod hand then the translation part of the rod hand movement is also a form of hauling. If I lay the line on the ground in front of me with my rod tip pointed at the fly and both my line hand and rod hand reaching towards the fly as far as I can get them then I can't do a lot with my line hand at this point to contribute to my back cast. In the other hand if I keep my line hand right where it is and pull straight back with my rod hand what happens? The fly moves twice as far as my rod hand. Now I don't normally cast like that but as you pointed out in Alejandro and Aitor's video the line hand comes to a stop before the rod reaches RSP...
"There can be only one." - The Highlander. :pirate:

PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.

PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.

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Paul Arden
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Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#10

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:31 am

Yep that's why I said normally Bernd! It doesn't always apply, for example the 170 stroke where the rod angle relationship to the line will avoid a tail. When false casting a shorter length of line I - and I suspect you - haul through RSP. Hauling intensity doesn't have to match rod hand intensity, that's simply the easiest to learn. High haul intensity with light rod hand intensity produces the tightest loops.

Cheers, Paul
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